Pack heat folks... and be aware of your surroundings.

[Creaky_Old_Cop]

I'll just roll my eyes here.

 

[Kleanbore]

No idea what it is you're attempting to get across.

It's crystal clear to me.

Those "outside of sworn law enforcement and corrections (who actually see and experience true extreme violence on a regular basis and who live and work in the real world) ..." aren't the folks who are going to be viewing videos such as the one in the OP....QUOTE]What would be a basis for that contention?

A video on the internet a "learning opportunity?"

Videos of real events and those of scripted scenarios can usually, but perhaps not always, teach us something--sometimes very effectively

No, the "dwellers in lollipop land" learn only from personal experience.

Personal experience can be very effective teacher, but it it cannot be relied upon for everything.

And most aren't going to have their actions guided by what some video they view on YouTube.

Could be, but I think that many people might.

What is the takeaway point for this video? Look around, and don't wave your money around in the wrong place, at the wrong time, and in close proximity of someone.

 

[Sam1911]

Eh. It's life. Another case of video ending up on the internet so hundreds of non-involved people can pick apart the actions of an average citizen ... it's not about strategies and tactics -- most citizens go through their lives and don't even know what those words mean. Now, if the video's subject was a trained law enforcement officer or military special warfare operator, maybe we'd be justified in critiquing him, but since he clearly wasn't, what do all of us internet commandos really learn from the video?

This crops up again. The "you're picking on him," you're "armchair quarterbacks," "you shouldn't critique him."

That's completely wrong!

I've posted this so often it should probably be a sticky, but ...

"I see that kind of sentiment occasionally. Something along the lines of, "You weren't there, he was, he lived, so he did PERFECTLY and you all should stop criticizing him."

And that completely misses the point of our S&T forum. This isn't a place to cheer the good guys, boo the nasty baddies, and pat ourselves on the back for another dead criminal.

This is where we dissect what happened, compare and contrast how the event took place with the best instruction and training practice we have received, and contemplate what could have gone better or worse for the defender. Our purpose in doing so is neither to condemn or congratulate. It is to evaluate different approaches and learn what techniques might be likely to help US succeed if and when we face OUR OWN moment of need."

This isn't the gossip sheet. It isn't an entertainment channel. It's supposed to be a place of learning and teaching.

If you can look at this video and not learn anything because picking out what the defender did wrong isn't "fair" or "nice" or doesn't recognize his innate worth as a human being who has the right to live a pleasant life... then don't participate in an ST&T thread.

Here is where we discuss how to do BETTER.

 

[Kleanbore]

Suppose we were to post some videos of grocery shoppers leaving their purses in their shopping carts, letting go of their carts, and directing their attentions elsewhere, and then learning, to their unpleasant surprise, that their purses had disappeared.

If none of those shoppers were trained law enforcement officers or military special warfare officers, would it be worthwhile to discuss the errors of their ways? Could "internet commandos" learn anything from it?

Leaving a purse unattended is essentially not much different from holding out a wad of cash close to a stranger.

The only element that we would be missing id the imprudent move to block the departure of the big and likely violent criminal.

I find myself warning shoppers who do that too frequently.

 

[9MMare]

I am not in the slightest defending his decision. I am saying only that ONLY he ultimately can decide whether he made the right decision -- for himself. Here again, the internet makes it possible for people who've never been in a physical fight or taken a punch in their entire lives to ridicule others and proclaim to internet-land what fools these others have been ...

Some folks will take an ass-whipping to stand up for themselves. Others will not. Only you know what you can live with afterwards. I've avoiding ass-whippings on some occasions, and taken more than one on others. But I'm certainly not going to spout off on the internet and pronounce someone wrong for a decision that he/she made as a adult -- presumably knowing the consequences (and having to deal with the subsequent pain).

We all know he has free will. We all saw him pay the consequences.

And even if, he personally believes it was right for him, the purpose of examining the video was to be constructive, educational. We see lots of people do stupid/careless/accidental things on the Internet and if *they* end up choosing to believe it was 'the right decision' for them, it's still pretty meaningless when most people observing--with rational thought and hindsight--would learn and recognize that it's not really (for that person even but certainly for everyone else).

So while I have seen a few people ridicule him, most are just finding it necessary to explain to those defending **his decision** WHY it was not a prudent or even smart thing to do. Because...it was not. If that needs to be explained, it needs to be explained. This guy trying to get back his cash only *reacted* and seemingly was not prepared with any prior strategizing or skills. He didnt 'do his part to make criminals think twice'. He boosted the ego of a lowlife, if anything.

So there's nothing wrong with commenting with hindsight in a constructive manner. IMO it's weaksauce when a thread goes on and on and THEN someone starts with the 'if you've never (fill in the blank)' and 'Monday morning QBing' comments. (How many punches does someone need to have taken to qualify to comment?)

 

[fastbolt]

I wonder what the victim from that incident would say about it, in retrospect?

Probably not that he was glad he got severely beaten.

I wouldn't be surprised if he's decided that he'd do things differently if he ever found himself in some similar set of circumstances which offered the same potential for robbery & personal violence.

Do you suppose he might not be offended if people watching what happened to him used his example to think about what they might do different?

Some folks who are disinclined to carefully consider the circumstances of any particular incident, and learn from it, may be setting themselves up to suffer a similar failure, and fate, should it come around to them.

Learn from the experiences of others, or not.

In LE, we include review, analysis and discussion of such incidents as part of a "training" curriculum, to try and develop an effective response should something similar befall us.

 

[Old Dog]

This isn't the gossip sheet. It isn't an entertainment channel. It's supposed to be a place of learning and teaching.

If you can look at this video and not learn anything because picking out what the defender did wrong isn't "fair" or "nice" or doesn't recognize his innate worth as a human being who has the right to live a pleasant life... then don't participate in an ST&T thread.

Here is where we discuss how to do BETTER.

Good lord, Sam, did I say this person did it perfectly? Did I come across as defending his actions?

Have we been talking about what the defender did wrong as "isn't fair" or "nice" or not recognized his innate worth as a human being, etc., etc.? I think not.

But I do disagree with you. I'm simply saying that there's really not much to learn when an obviously untrained, complacent, clearly not physically-fit person reacts badly to a strong-arm robbery and it's certainly NOT an example to be held up as worthy of teaching folks here -- who typically (at least as most seem to claim) have a modicum of training, experience and a self-reliant mindset -- ANYTHING about "strategy and tactics."

Roll your eyes all you want, Mr. "Creaky Old Cop," but if you think that watching a video of a clueless, untrained, physically incapable person getting his butt kicked is a worthwhile lesson in strategy and tactics, well, I have nothing further to say.

 

[Creaky_Old_Cop]

Good lord, Sam, did I say this person did it perfectly? Did I come across as defending his actions?

Have we been talking about what the defender did wrong as "isn't fair" or "nice" or not recognized his innate worth as a human being, etc., etc.? I think not.

But I do disagree with you. I'm simply saying that there's really not much to learn when an obviously untrained, complacent, clearly not physically-fit person reacts badly to a strong-arm robbery and it's certainly NOT an example to be held up as worthy of teaching folks here -- who typically (at least as most seem to claim) have a modicum of training, experience and a self-reliant mindset -- ANYTHING about "strategy and tactics."

Roll your eyes all you want, Mr. "Creaky Old Cop," but if you think that watching a video of a clueless, untrained, physically incapable person getting his butt kicked is a worthwhile lesson in strategy and tactics, well, I have nothing further to say.

There is a ton to be learned from that video. Not even insofar as what the victim did, or failed to do, and yes, there was value in that. BUT...I would assert that the greatest value for anyone with any training whatsoever (and at this point I am doubting you even have the modicum you mentioned)...are the tells and signals from the subject. It was a nearly perfect illustration, that could be seen from start to finish, of a predator recognizing prey and making the choice to attack. You can see the shift in focus and body language, and even the pre-oxygenating of the subject's body as he prepared to attack. It was great little movie short of a compressed OODA loop of an opportunistic predator. Yes, predators have an OODA loop too and anyone who has any training whatsoever, beyond their fantasies or mall ninja school, could see it and recognize it for what it was and how it played out. Anyone with any kind of critical thinking and analytical skills would see the lessons in it, the value of it, and be more than willing to discuss it intelligently and to break it down to see the pivot points in the incident.

If you think I'm "picking on" the clueless, untrained, physically incapable person and that is what you take away from it, then you might not want to evoke the term "strategies and tactics" because they are developed and evolved from nasty hard lessons in the real world. I would submit without rancor that you're not versed in either.

It's all about how you're wired, but hey....keep tossing out the "nuh uh" argument and the "but but but but" rebuttals. You're doing fine.

 

[Kleanbore]

I'm simply saying that there's really not much to learn when an obviously untrained, complacent, clearly not physically-fit person reacts badly to a strong-arm robbery...

There is something to be learned when we understand how anyone not only "reacts badly" to a strong-arm robbery, but also when his behavior precipitates it.

and it's certainly NOT an example to be held up as worthy of teaching folks here -- who typically (at least as most seem to claim) have a modicum of training, experience and a self-reliant mindset -- ANYTHING about "strategy and tactics."

Not everyone who reads posts here is already knowledgeable about such things.

...if you think that watching a video of a clueless, untrained, physically incapable person getting his butt kicked is a worthwhile lesson in strategy and tactics, well, I have nothing further to say.

I too think it to be a worthwhile lesson.

 

[Shooter101]

But wait...

According to many people, being attacked by only hands and feet does not justify a lethal response.

I wonder in how many jurisdictions across the country, given the nature of the attack and even the racial aspect, would the victim be in trouble if he made the perp eat a Gold Dot.

Not much trouble I don't believe he would just be correcting his grammar ending it in a period

 

[Sam1911]

But I do disagree with you. I'm simply saying that there's really not much to learn when an obviously untrained, complacent, clearly not physically-fit person reacts badly to a strong-arm robbery and it's certainlyNOT an example to be held up as worthy of teachingfolks here -- who typically (at least as most seem toclaim) have a modicum of training, experience and a self-reliant mindset -- ANYTHING about "strategy and tactics."

So you feel that watching examples of someone doing the wrong things and pointing out why those behaviors contributed to a bad end is NOT an effective teaching and learning tool?

Most training I've taken on almost all subjects spent much more time analyzing bad actions than simply watching successful ones.

There's far more to learn from mistakes than successes -- whether those successes are simply lucky or truly good.

 

[JTHunter]

So you feel that watching examples of someone doing the wrong things and pointing out why those behaviors contributed to a bad end is NOT an effective teaching and learning tool?

"Negative reinforcement". Videos of people doing things the "right" way don't seem to have the impact of seeing when they screw up. People's fear of being thought the fool or being ridiculed can be a great motivator, causing them to pay better attention.

 

[Sam1911]

Yes, that's so, and can be helpful. But simply seeing in real "live" video how very basic decisions and (lack of) awareness can throw a situation into the danger zone like, for real, is worth hours in a classroom talking about it. And in this case, seeing how someones innate, semi-autonomous reactions to what he saw as a sudden situation turned it from bad to near deadly in a second.

 

[Lapuamag]

That was a guy who was not ready! Wow what a epic overhaul.
He blocked his exit, and started jabbering with zero plan for resistance, had no good reaction to getting hit, by the time he raised his hands in anything resembling defense maneuver he was knocked out.

People may not agree with what I am about to say , but, a gun wouldn't have helped that guy. He'll, he may have had one on him anyway, he wasn't ready to do anything if he had anything to use, he was too close, zero element of surprise, and the violence of action of a diet crouton.

Not everyone escalates to fight as fast as everyone else, I mean, it was 3 seconds and go!

The black fella had everything on his side, speed, surprise (that white fella shouldn't have been surprised but he sure looks that way), and a very violent action.

He let the guy get nose to nose, let him separate at a range good enough for a solid entry in the form of a quick right to the jaw, and a very decisive series of blows, with no response.

Sam colt wouldn't have done anything for him.

 

[Kleanbore]

People may not agree with what I am about to say , but, a gun wouldn't have helped that guy. He'll, he may have had one on him anyway, he wasn't ready to do anything if he had anything to use, he was too close, zero element of surprise, and the violence of action of a diet crouton.

Yep.

 

[Lapuamag]

Thanks boss.

 

[Lapuamag]

So you feel that watching examples of someone doing the wrong things and pointing out why those behaviors contributed to a bad end is NOT an effective teaching and learning tool?

Most training I've taken on almost all subjects spent much more time analyzing bad actions than simply watching successful ones.

There's far more to learn from mistakes than successes -- whether those successes are simply lucky or truly good.

Can't agree more with that statement. There seems to be allot more ways to do things wrong than to do things right, regardless of what your subject. Good to know what "rules" you can bend and which ones you can't. Better to learn from someone else's mistakes than to make your own.

 

[Lapuamag]

Street fights are so rarely symmetrical. In most martial arts schools that I have attended you generally get put with a training partner that mimics you in size and skill level. JKD is the only teaching method I've found that puts emphasis on different body types, and removes rank, replacing it with skill level.
A JKD guy with progressive fighting systems would have welcomed the attacker getting so close for headbutt ,knees and elbows.
I feel for the guy in the video, and that was very respectable regardless of how stupid it was, just out of principle.

I have training, and I competed, but I'm not sure I would have tried to confront him.

I have been robbed a few times, actually. It really isn't worth your life. But, just because they get your money, doesn't mean it's going to stop their. They might take everything and then kill you anyway.

It's not a easy call to make, the consequences are dire, even if you come out on top. And it's not like you have allot of time to think about it. Unfortunately, thugs capitalize on this. With their physical size or numbers. The best defensive tactic so far that I know is move to the country, and leave the concrete jungle for the animals that belong there.

 

[Lapuamag]

Here's a nightmare scenario that happened to me, it's abbreviated, but should get my point across.

I was in downtown Minneapolis near the greyhound bus station, I had a cabbie bring me their.

There was a bunch of fellas who were shouting, and a ambulance their, I pulled out my phone and started recording.

Well the group of fine gentlemen didn't appear to like me taking video, and forced the driver to stop, blocking the roadway.

One asked the driver to roll down the window.

I said f### That, don't do It!

He rolled it down a crack and the guy reaches in grabs my phone, I clutch it and go to bite the bugger.

He releases , to avoid the bite, and goes for the door handle.

I'm screaming at the cabbie to drive, and the group of fine gentlemen proceed to kick the crap out of the car, everybody is screaming, I gotta tell you...i felt like an unarmed security contractor in IRAQ. I knew, if they got me out of that car, they would try and kill me.

I'm yelling at the driver, who finally pulls forward and I'm yelling at him to go faster, I was in the front seat, and fold it down so I'm laying prone trying to avoid a bullet, just in case.

The driver stops again a few blocks down, and says I need to get out, "or we are going back" I say, ok, let me get my bag! "No" he says, I could have killed him right then, and he and I almost got into it right their...but I knew I was screwed if they caught up to us. So I bailed.

Those fellers werent too cool, and the guy I thought was helping was the one who robbed me!

I was traveling by bus, no gun.
No knife either.

Moral of the story, be armed, and be prepared all the time.

If you want to record some insanity, don't make yourself a target by being seen doing it.

Generally speaking, mind your own business, is the best strategy for survival, I know many of us can't bear watching something terrible and do nothing, but, you can't help if you get hurt too, and when that happens, you are over burdening the emergency services, ambulances only fit one, remember that.

 

[Lapuamag]

Here's a nightmare scenario that happened to me, it's abbreviated, but should get my point across.

I was in downtown Minneapolis near the greyhound bus station, I had a cabbie bring me their.

There was a bunch of fellas who were shouting, and a ambulance their, I pulled out my phone and started recording.

Well the group of fine gentlemen didn't appear to like me taking video, and forced the driver to stop, blocking the roadway.

One asked the driver to roll down the window.

I said f### That, don't do It!

He rolled it down a crack and the guy reaches in grabs my phone, I clutch it and go to bite the bugger.

He releases , to avoid the bite, and goes for the door handle.

I'm screaming at the cabbie to drive, and the group of fine gentlemen proceed to kick the crap out of the car, everybody is screaming, I gotta tell you...i felt like an unarmed security contractor in IRAQ. I knew, if they got me out of that car, they would try and kill me.

I'm yelling at the driver, who finally pulls forward and I'm yelling at him to go faster, I was in the front seat, and fold it down so I'm laying prone trying to avoid a bullet, just in case.

The driver stops again a few blocks down, and says I need to get out, "or we are going back" I say, ok, let me get my bag! "No" he says, I could have killed him right then, and he and I almost got into it right their...but I knew I was screwed if they caught up to us. So I bailed.

Those fellers werent too cool, and the guy I thought was helping was the one who robbed me!

I was traveling by bus, no gun.
No knife either.

Moral of the story, be armed, and be prepared all the time.

If you want to record some insanity, don't make yourself a target by being seen doing it.

Generally speaking, mind your own business, is the best strategy for survival, I know many of us can't bear watching something terrible and do nothing, but, you can't help if you get hurt too, and when that happens, you are over burdening the emergency services, ambulances only fit one, remember that.

Oh and one more thing, have a plan to kill everyone you meet. Sounds bad, it isn't.

 

[Kleanbore]

Oh and one more thing, have a plan to kill everyone you meet. Sounds bad, it isn't.

Actually, it is.

In a case that has been discussed here many times, the fact that a defendant had used material containing that phrase in training material was used to great effect by prosecutors in two trials, which bankrupted the defendant. It was used to establish possible means rea, and tp portray the defendant as a person predisposed to violence.

The defendant was kept in jail for months in what would have been a relatively clear case of necessary self defense--which resulted in no deaths and no really serious injuries.

It is mentioned in our sticky in internet posting:

https://www.thehighroad.org/index.p...iderations-of-posting-on-the-internet.604948/​

 

[Panzerschwein]

One of the MARINE CORPS sayings is sometimes to the effect of "be polite, but have a plan to kill every single person in te room" or thereseabouts.

 

[Jeff White]

There was a bunch of fellas who were shouting, and a ambulance their, I pulled out my phone and started recording.

Why did you want to record this?

 

[a_canadian]

A lot of folks these days go to their phone's camera function pretty much automatically when something 'interesting' starts happening in front of them. The internet is festooned with the results, including millions of videos of people recording their own supposedly interesting and eventful lives, even when they're murdering other people. Makes for great evidence I suppose. Which is great if one is a lawyer or a cop. You know, the sort who thrives on what has already transpired and is safely in the past...

So far, in about seventeen years carrying a phone or PDA with a camera, I've never remembered or thought to do this. I'm usually too busy assessing immediate priorities such as does this person need help, is this person a threat to me or someone else here, how should I respond. Is tackling the person a priority or would running away be the better option? So I be dialing 911 and/or performing CPR? If an incident is less critical than might lead to any of the above sorts of options then I might eventually remember the camera. If it's just a pretty view, then I sure, the camera comes out. Funny thing is I used to go around with really decent cameras and lenses actually looking for interesting subjects. In my teens and twenties. Guess I outgrew it. More interested from my thirties in helping people and in preserving my own and my family's security.

 

[Lapuamag]

It is not automatic. But once you are losing a fight, and taking the example here you are on the ground, and the subject is still landing blows it would apply. Many a PO "has been losing the fight" while still standing, used deadly force - and walked.

I have already stated that a dose of pepper right off would have probably ended it. But had I (now 59, about 145) been this guy, carrying a handgun, as soon as I was down I would have stitched this guy from his crotch on up.

You aren't using deadly anything when unconscious.