Pedersoli Carleton Underhammer Ignition Challenges

[Pistolero_Libre]

Hi Folks,

New to the board, but have been lurking for quite some time.

I've recently purchased a Pedersoli Carleton Underhammer pistol in .36cal. Have been having a devil of a time to get it to fire. It's unlike any other muzzleloader I've ever fired.

The load is Goex 3F, have tried 8-16 grains. Primer is CCI#11. Ball is Hornady .350. Patch is a Wonderlube patch (until I figure out the right recipe for my own). On top of the powder is a column of corn meal equivalent to 12grains volume of black powder.

My challenge is in getting the first shot to fire, and then to avoid hang-fires. The nipple is as provided by the factory. In fact the gun is only 2 weeks old so everything is "factory original".

Firing caps on the nipple to pre-clean prior to loading is what I've been doing. I've not been able to pick the nipple as it's got a very fine hole in it, less than .020", but appears to be the same size hole as the nipples on my 1858 Remington Revolver which fires without hesitation.

When I place a patch at the very muzzle of the barrel and fire a cap the patch moves forward but will not be blown out of the barrel. This same test on my hunting rifles causes the patch to be expelled completely.

I'm wondering if the nipple hole is too small? Or if the flash hole from breech to drum may be corrupted with metal filings etc? I've tried to pick it out from the drum side but without great success.

I'd really like to hear that the drum is removable but I think that's a pipe dream.

Please fire away with your helpful suggestions of how I might make this thing ignite more reliably!

 

[Pistolero_Libre]

I should have mentioned that I've also tried CCI Magnum #11 caps with no improvement in ignition results. I've also poured 3F powder into the drum and once was able to make it fire that way. My most recent attempt in that regard failed to produce fire. I checked the nipple and I can see through it so the hole is clear. I'm stumped!

 

[arcticap]

I'd really like to hear that the drum is removable but I think that's a pipe dream.

The good news is that the drum is removable.
There's a PDF schematic on page 7 and a parts list on page 8 at the following link:

http://mp510sd.weebly.com/uploads/4/4/9/2/4492446/the_pedersoli_carleton.pdf

 

[Pistolero_Libre]

Articap - thanks for pointing that out. I've looked at it and I'm beginning to think this drum is something like a breach plug - removable, with special tools and processes. A good amount of torque applied to a 14mm wrench on the drum produced no results so this may not be a service-removeable part.

On another note, I spent some more time at the range this evening and had only moderate success. I had swabbed every part of the bore, powder chamber, nipple and drum as clean and dry as I could get it. After firing three caps and picking the nipple to ensure it was clear, I then loaded 12gr Goex FFFg with a loading funnel/drop tube, then loaded the same amount of corn meal on top, followed by patch and ball. I had every reason to believe this thing would fire the first time without hesitation. Nosiree!

Several caps later she still hadn't fired, so I removed the nipple, trickled some 3F into the drum and reinserted the nipple after picking it and visually inspecting to ensure it was clear. A regular cap was installed and popped with no results. Then I tried a magnum #11 and she fired.

The 12 shots that followed were pretty much hit-or-miss - some required two caps to fire, some would only fire with a magnum cap. All did fire without any hesitation between hammer drop and "boom", IF they fired at all.

On the up-side, this gun can group very well. Five shots touching at 20 yards when fired single-handed and dealing with all the ignition problems. Obviously more work needs to be done on accuracy, but this is a good indicator. Of course, it's got to go "boom" every time, otherwise accuracy will be meaningless!

 

[arcticap]

One question is whether or not the powder is making it into the drum. Before loading the filler, are you slapping the side of the gun while holding it at the proper angle to help the powder get into the drum?
Another question is whether or not the filler is interfering at all with the powder entering the drum? If the filler is dropping on top of the powder before the powder can enter the drum, then the powder would need to be coaxed into the drum first.
The last question is whether or not the nipple is defective and has a flash hole that's too small?
It shouldn't require magnum caps to set it off and it shouldn't have so many misfires.
Pedersoli has a U.S. repair facility listed on their website. Maybe you should contact the seller or the repair facility about having it checked out. There could be more than one problem. It may need a new drum, a new nipple or some work on fitting the parts.
It's a shame that such an expensive brand new gun isn't able to fire properly.


http://www.davide-pedersoli.com/dis...sottoarea_224/distributors-united states.html

Service points & Warranty service
LEE SHAVER GUNSMITH
1020 Broadway St. - P.O. Box 570 - 64759 - LAMAR, MO.
Phone: 001 417 682 3330 fax: Email: [email protected]

 

[Pistolero_Libre]

With respect to loading the pistol with powder and slapping it, the pistol is being loaded while standing vertically in a loading stand. The flash hole into the drum is at the very bottom of the powder chamber so some powder should be making it into the drum every time, but perhaps not. The use of a loading funnel/drop tube should result in good "stacking" of the powder and corn meal in and above the powder chamber; this is pretty much standard practice on most single-shot target pistols, irrespective of whether their drum is mounted on the side or the bottom of the barrel. I haven't seen anybody else on the firing line having to slap the sides of their sidehammer pistols or their Feinwerkbau underhammers, so I'm guessing the powder disperses into the drum by virtue of the force imparted on it by its fall down the barrel. But that's only a guess on my part. One of my sidehammer rifles likes to be patted on the side, so who knows?

I've done a bunch more testing and have conferred with the local dealer/warranty service shop. The nipple used on the Carleton Underhammer pistol is the same as that used on their revolvers.

My hypothesis is that the revolvers work just fine because the nipple is directly behind the powder and the flame path is extremely short. Take that same nipple with a 0.015" flash hole in it, place it in a drum that's a long distance from the powder and you no longer have the same situation as in the revolver, and likewise don't have the same reliability of ignition.

After some discussion it's been decided the next logical step is to bore out the nipple hole to the same size advertised by several other vendors, 0.028". I've concluded this drilling and have conducted a rudimentary test by rolling up a cleaning patch and inserting it in the muzzle, then snapping a cap. Previously this same test resulted in the cleaning patch only moving forward less than half its own length. Now, with the larger nipple hole, the patch was ejected from the barrel. So far, so good.

Range report to follow...

 

[arcticap]

I mentioned about slapping the side of the barrel because it's stated in a section of the Pedersoli manual named Loading & Shooting Instructions for Single Shot Muzzle Loading Guns - Percussion (page 9).
I think that you're right that gravity should feed the powder into the drum. The drum is probably connected near the very bottom of the powder chamber where the filler shouldn't interfere with it entering.
The Pedersoli manual also mentions in Suggested Black Powder Loads (page 18a) that for the Carleton, the range is from 12 grains to a maximum of 30 grains.
It's good to hear that drilling the nipple seems to have helped.

 

[Pistolero_Libre]

Range Report

This evening I had a bit of spare time so headed off to the range. Snapped two caps, loaded the first shot as with all previous shots, put another standard CCI #11 cap on the nipple and brought the pistol on target...

BOOM!

Another 26 shots followed. Zero failures to fire. Zero requirements for a second cap to be used. Zero need for magnum caps.

It looks like opening up the flash hole in the nipple has done the trick. Yippeee!!!!