Percentage of prohibited people who try to buy guns?

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I have a good friend of mine that is a attorney. We do a lot of shooting together at the local club. We started a conversation that is a issue in Virginia. And that is "Unwanted touching". Very hard to define, but most importantly, is now a standard tool used in Divorce cases where the divorce lawyer represents the wife. While most cases with this charge are thrown out as most Judges have become savvy to the tactic, it still presents itself to the poor sucker that cannot afford to hire a attorney.
 
I took it from this phrase that the OP was more asking about a prohibited person's general interest in firearms, not in whether or not they would be necessarily interested in committing crimes with them.

..that prohibited people are more likely to not have any interest in guns because they don't want to remind themselves that they are not allowed to own them.

I would venture that the majority of prohibited persons who have, or develop, a general interest in firearms (the kind we share) would, as indicated, refrain from following through with that interest through unlawful means. Perhaps they would seek some satisfaction through non-firearm guns (air/gas guns, BP guns, etc), replica models, and media.

I have a brother who is a prohibited person from a decades-old drug conviction. He was actually telling me once that he felt the desire for a firearm for home defense, but knew that was a (legal) impossibility. It appears that, since he has no interest in running afoul of the law anymore, he will not attempt to obtain one (I discussed with him other home-defense options that are available to a prohibited person in his state of residence.)
 
All background checks are unconstitutional.

Live with that. .
Statements like this are not helpful. According to the courts, the 2nd Amendment is no more absolute than the 1st. Since convicted felons are prohibited from having guns, background checks are also permissible to keep felons from getting guns. The fact that felons can easily circumvent these restrictions doesn't invalidate them.
 
Statements like this are not helpful. According to the courts, the 2nd Amendment is no more absolute than the 1st. Since convicted felons are prohibited from having guns, background checks are also permissible to keep felons from getting guns. The fact that felons can easily circumvent these restrictions doesn't invalidate them.

Just a matter of opinion The Constitution and I and many others strongly disagree with you statists.
 
You want to keep guns out of the hands of felons? Simple! If any felon uses or has possession of a firearm during the commission of another crime, it becomes a federal felony with a minimum of 10 years in federal lockup in addition to whatever sentence their crime gets them. If it happens again (3rd time) he gets +20 years additional. Simple. Effective. Will they do this? Why no, we don't have enough prisons. So what good will new laws do? The good people will follow them and the bad guys will continue to ignore them. They don't care. The punishment is a slap on the wrist to them. They'll continue to have guns no matter what until the punishment becomes a deterrent. Enforce and add teeth to the laws we already have. Enough is enough. We have nothing left to give up.

You do understand the Federal law already exists, right? 18 U.S.C. 922(g) is up to 10 years with no parole or good time reductions for felon in possession. Just having the gun or ammo is the crime, don't have to be doing anything else. The charge is usually used to encourage plea bargaining and is almost never enforced. In the early 2000's the Fed's ran an enforcement program in bad neighborhoods in Chicago using the law. Big temporary drop in street crime however it cost local prosecutors and other elected officials their jobs when election time came around. Shocking but many parents dont like their teenage and 20-something 'kids' being sent away. NYC was doing it for a while as well however their results were better since the police had a massive (and unconstitutional) stop-and-frisk program to randomly shake down anyone who appeared gang related or didn't fit into a community. Sadly the same story unfolded with the election of a mayor and many others who swore to end the programs. Crime slowly starts back but enough gentrification happened to push the poor elements out of communities so overall not back to the bad old days.

To the OP question, at least here in Alabama there are quite people who appear to roll the dice with background checks. Denials seems to be somewhat common at my son's store. Pretty sure those are not followed up. I do know he said there's only been one or two delays in the past year who actually showed up 3 days later to claim the guns.
 
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Just a matter of opinion The Constitution and I and many others strongly disagree with you statists.
Yea, the system is jacked up. So you don’t think they can be trusted to legally own a gun, but your gonna turn them loose to walk the streets amongst my wife and kids? That’s really jacked up. Any felon that’s not reformed will simply go get a gun illegally. So we’re back to the law only hurting good people.
Laws don’t work, they only punish law abiding citizens.
 
Yea, the system is jacked up. So you don’t think they can be trusted to legally own a gun, but your gonna turn them loose to walk the streets amongst my wife and kids? That’s really jacked up. Any felon that’s not reformed will simply go get a gun illegally. So we’re back to the law only hurting good people.
Laws don’t work, they only punish law abiding citizens.

That is it. Criminals are in prison to serve their time. Once released they should be able to procure a firearm having served their debt to society.

If there is a problem with that they never should have been released. But statists don't care.

They just want to eliminate all the guns from all "civilians".

As always it is not the guns, it is the control. See the books on Stalin, Hitler, Mao, et alia.

22,000 gun laws on the books in 50 states. All should be rescinded. They only hamper the law abiding.

Criminals obey NO laws. They never have and never will.
 
That is it. Criminals are in prison to serve their time. Once released they should be able to procure a firearm having served their debt to society.

You do realize that isn't how it works right? Many parole and probation programs list stipulations, even for non felons, upon release from incarceration. The most common one I have ever seen is you cannot own a firearm for a certain time period. Doing so would be a parole or probation violation. Just because someone is out of incarceration is no where near having their "slate clean." They are just one step closer if they follow the rules, majority don't and end up back behind bars.
 
You do realize that isn't how it works right? Many parole and probation programs list stipulations, even for non felons, upon release from incarceration. The most common one I have ever seen is you cannot own a firearm for a certain time period. Doing so would be a parole or probation violation. Just because someone is out of incarceration is no where near having their "slate clean." They are just one step closer if they follow the rules, majority don't and end up back behind bars.

How it works and how it is suppose to work are two different animals, Herrwalther. Love that handle! :D
 
I work part time in a small LGS.
The majority of our denials have been overturned on appeal. Yes, the system is wrong, more than it's right.
We've had police officers denied, Medical Doctors denied, Judges Denied, and yes, I have been denied.
To this day, I can fill out my own 4473, log in with my own Login, and get delayed.

In a few instances, we've gotten phone calls asking for personal information on the denied applicant. They will call them, and inform them that it is a bad idea to try to purchase a firearm ever again.

Generally people illiterate to the point they can't fill out the form, will be disqualify themselves early in the process.

#1 reason for turning down sales is a change of address not updated on ID.
Update your ID if you move.
 
The friend of the Dayton, Ohio mass murderer who hid the murderer's armor, guns and double drum magazine in his home from the murderer's sister and parents was interviewed by the police after the shootings. He was sitting in his living room talking to the officers with a bong visible. They asked him how long he had smoked marijuana and he said about 10 years. They asked him when he bought his last gun. They checked his form with the dealer and found that he had sworn that he was not a drug user. He's in jail awaiting trial for lying on his form among other things. I think that "Criminal Genius" is an oxymoron!
 
I don't know about precise percentages, but during the time I worked in gun shops after background checks were implimented, I would estimate that the number of denials was less than 1%, with delays being somewhat higher. To the best of my knowledge, none of the denials were ever prosecuted although I asked local police and prosecutors to follow up countless times.

However... there is another number, even more imprecise, and that is the number of people who started to fill out the 4473 and then stopped and decided not to complete the form. I worked in all three eras -- pre 4473, post 4473 and post background check -- and in the post 4473 era there were many folks, more than the denials but still probably less than 1%, who would stop after one or more of the questions and decide against continuing the process. Some folks would start asking all sorts of legal questions such as "what does adjudicated mean?" or "does my conviction for xxx count as a felony?" After the advent of cell phones, there were people who would read the questions and call her/his lawyer for clarification and/or explanation while standing at the counter.

And then, of course, there are the cases in which the 4473 and/or background check stopped an individual from purchasing a firearm, but didn't stop their criminal intent. For example, the one that I remember the most and which still causes an occassional nightmare, is an incident that occurred my first day on the job working for a big box sporting goods retailer. I was still a student and I took the job because the guy who hired me said that I could work evenings and weekends. First day on the job, I show up all excited at 6:00pm as scheduled and said hello to my 3 fellow counter guys. I knew something was up; they were all bunched up snickering and whispering but I was trying to be friendly so I asked "what's happening?" They were all real casual like and urged me to go over to a fellow at the far end of the counter who was looking at crossbows. I did so and spoke with him at some length about crossbows and equiping one for the coming deer season. After a couple of hours or so, he decided to buy a mid range bow, a box or two of bolts, some practice tips and some broadheads. It was my first sale at the new job and while it wasn't about to set the world on fire, it was a nice sale. Once again, I realized something was up because the other counter guys were now snickering and laughing, pointing and guffawing. That's when they told me the guy had tried to buy a firearm, but stopped because of the questions on the 4473; and this was in the period before background checks. I just turned pale, didn't say a word to these people I now considered ignorant jerks, and went to speak with management. I explained the situation to management, that I sold this crossbow to a guy, who couldn't legally own a firearm and that I was concerned. Management listened politiely and then told me not to worry, nothing would come of it. He was probably just a novice, wanting to get into deer hunting and admittedly there were lots of folks in that catagory at the time. It didn't turn out exactly that way. The next day, Saturday, I arrived at work about 1:00 and there was a county sheriff's crusier there. Went inside and was immediately approached by management and 2 officers. They asked me if I would mind going with them to confirm that the crossbow used to kill a young woman was the one I sold to the "novice deer hunter" the evening before. He had taken her on a picnic in a park down by the river and shot her in the head at point blank range with one of the broadheads. The sales receipt was still in the bag in the trunk of the car. Of course, he was claiming it was all just a "horrible accident." Just thought you might like to hear about one case where the 4473 and even a background check, had they been in use, would not have prevented a murder. Thanks for reading.
 
Those are tough. Some of my friends sold the guns to the ax’s-holes who did the San Bernardino shooting. Everything the sellers did was 100% on the level, but they never got over it... or the intense scrutiny they faced afterwards.

Stay safe.
 
Just thought you might like to hear about one case where the 4473 and even a background check, had they been in use, would not have prevented a murder. Thanks for reading.

It also shows criminals will still get weapons. He was not allowed to own firearms. So he got a cross bow. If cross bows needed a 4473 check, my money is he would have gotten a knife and done the same thing.
 
I took it from this phrase that the OP was more asking about a prohibited person's general interest in firearms, not in whether or not they would be necessarily interested in committing crimes with them.



I would venture that the majority of prohibited persons who have, or develop, a general interest in firearms (the kind we share) would, as indicated, refrain from following through with that interest through unlawful means. Perhaps they would seek some satisfaction through non-firearm guns (air/gas guns, BP guns, etc), replica models, and media.

I have a brother who is a prohibited person from a decades-old drug conviction. He was actually telling me once that he felt the desire for a firearm for home defense, but knew that was a (legal) impossibility. It appears that, since he has no interest in running afoul of the law anymore, he will not attempt to obtain one (I discussed with him other home-defense options that are available to a prohibited person in his state of residence.)

Yes, as the OP, this was my thought.
I find guns and shooting to be a right anchored in social and mutual interest. Anyone prohibited, it seems, can't lastingly participate in the culture without seeming disingenuous to themselves.
 
If a person is prohibited from buying a gun, are they much less likely to try to buy one?

I've had several denials. (not me pesonally....) A few were on pawned guns. We make it clear that a background check will need to be run before we can return the firearms and also what is likely to cause denials.

The thing that really confuses me is the number of people who ask if they can have a BR check run before putting their money on a gun. You don't remember if you committed a felony or got busted for domestic violence?

Then again, there are the two infamous incidents where the guy came in looing to be an AK or AR with a monitor bracelet on his ankle and the guy who wasn't sure if what he did was a felony, which turned out to be he shot a cop. Go figure.
 
The thing that really confuses me is the number of people who ask if they can have a BR check run before putting their money on a gun. You don't remember if you committed a felony or got busted for domestic violence?

There is tons of ambiguity in the legal system. I cannot tell you how many state troopers I have worked with that were just a few IQ points north of licking windows."What is that crime where you end another person's life again?" I was arrested for a felony charge and it took 4 months to resolve. Every time I go to renew my permit I have to remind and prove to the police that the charge was dropped and I wasn't convicted. If I get a delay at NCIS, I have no recourse other than wait. Local gun stores around me know they can proceed with a sale if they do not have a solid "No." All because a DA got a warrant for my arrest on a mistake and incompetence.
 
Laws don’t work, they only punish law abiding citizens.
Laws may not work 100% to prevent certain behavior, but at least they establish what is "normative." We all know that laws against murder don't prevent murder, but the problem would be much worse if there were no laws against murder.

The idea that once a felon has served his prison time, he should be given a blank slate and allowed to buy guns, just isn't realistic. If he has really reformed, there are provisions for expunging his record by going back to court. This is difficult, as it should be.
 
There is tons of ambiguity in the legal system. I cannot tell you how many state troopers I have worked with that were just a few IQ points north of licking windows."What is that crime where you end another person's life again?" I was arrested for a felony charge and it took 4 months to resolve. Every time I go to renew my permit I have to remind and prove to the police that the charge was dropped and I wasn't convicted. If I get a delay at NCIS, I have no recourse other than wait. Local gun stores around me know they can proceed with a sale if they do not have a solid "No." All because a DA got a warrant for my arrest on a mistake and incompetence.
This is why I say I am for fast and accurate background checks. They absolutely need to clean up the information in the computer systems. After all, that is the same information the police would be getting told in any scenario where they have to interact with you. If they're told someone has a felony record during a traffic stop they're going to handle it differently than if they're pulling over Mother Teresa. Before any thinks of adding to the myriad of gun laws with which we have to deal, they need to fix the systems on which the current laws run.

Ran into a similar situation, but not against me, but one of my guns. Apparently there was a 4" bbl nickel Colt Trooper stolen somewhere with the same serial number as my 6" blue steel Python. Yay Colt.

Before I bought my safe, every time I went out of town for vacation I'd pawn the couple of guns I had at the time at the pawn shop in which I worked. Every time I did my Python came up on police hold. Every single time, even though our pawn shop detective knew it wasn't the same gun, the serial number matched even though the entire rest of the description didn't match at all.
 
This is why I say I am for fast and accurate background checks. They absolutely need to clean up the information in the computer systems. After all, that is the same information the police would be getting told in any scenario where they have to interact with you. If they're told someone has a felony record during a traffic stop they're going to handle it differently than if they're pulling over Mother Teresa. Before any thinks of adding to the myriad of gun laws with which we have to deal, they need to fix the systems on which the current laws run.

I agree. I think I said in another thread you have to fix the foundation of a house before adding a second floor. NCIS is barely working in my experience. They have down periods, lots of flaws, denials and delay checks. A politician who wants to add on universal background checks to an already over loaded system is either ignorant or trying to break the system on purpose. My money is on both.
 
I'd like to add that the stats on denials do not only include felons and all the other common disqualifiers. There have been people, including myself, who have been denied mistakenly or for other minor reasons. For example, a news reporter failed her check because her home address address and the address on her license didn't match. I personally was denied years ago because my license was suspended. Ive seen other threads over the years on gun forums where people were deigned for minor issues. I wouldn't be surprised that if the overwhelming majority of denial statics are from minor issues having nothing to do with criminals or all the other things people automatically assume.
 
Has any background check ever stopped a determined murderer from obtaining weaponry? No.

Have background checks been an infringement on law abiding citizens? Yes.

Were things worse before GCA '68 (or NFA '34 for that matter)? No.

Scrap the entire system, and focus the energy, money, and time on catching criminals and giving them sentences commiserate with their crimes.
 
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