Plainclothes officer shot by uniformed cop

[SouthpawShootr]

Secondly, we shouldn't be "Armchair Quarterbacking" this event based off of a single-source (The Virginian-Pilot Newspaper) initial report. I'm not calling into question the veracity or reliability of the paper, but simply stating more information is needed for better analysis.

This is a local thing for me (I live in Chesapeake & work in Norfolk about a quarter mile away from where this happened). This story have changed significantly several times. I read in this morning's paper that the FBI is starting a preliminary civil rights investigation relating to this matter. That's preposterous. Also this morning, the officer's uncle, a former deputy police chief in Norfolk as well as the interim chief of police in Norfolk immediately preceding the installation of the current chief, had some highly critical things to say about this incident. Mostly, it was safety related stuff involving plain clothes duty. They were looking for someone who had shot at least one person in the area (actually turned out to be 2), so this was more of a case of mistaken identity than anything else. I'm sure the officer who fired saw a man with a gun in close proximity to uniformed officers and acted on it. This situation was chaotic and noisy by all accounts (I'd still like to know why the heck all these people had to be outside in the middle of this), so it's very likely that Darden was told to drop his weapon but didn't hear.

Clearly some changes are in order regarding plain clothes response to these incidents. Maybe all the guys on plain clothes duty should have jackets marked POLICE or something like that and be required to don these when responding to a call where it isn't necessary to maintain anonymity of the officer. Now, I'm not putting any blame on Darden. This was most likely a problem going back to the city's police procedures, which I hope will now be revised.

 

[Joe7cri]

I hate to specutale about things like this, but two words come to my mind when I read the story.

"Trigger" and "happy"

+1

Also, if he's a K9 unit, why didn't he send the dog first?

 

[SouthpawShootr]

Also, if he's a K9 unit, why didn't he send the dog first?

Could be he left the dog in the truck.

 

[Firethorn]

I agree with BullfrogKen. I see the problem as two-fold

A: We've militarized our police such that they shoot much quicker than they used to. The whole 'shoot anybody with a weapon not in uniform'.
B: We've increased the number of officers running around out of uniform.

That reminds me of the response where a paper talked about the threat of a CCW holder shooting, or being shot by the police by accident. I said that I know of no permit holders being mistakenly shot, but I do know of at least four undercover officers being killed by the police, should we disarm them as well, 'for their safety'?

I carry, knowing full well that if I'm forced to use it that there's a risk of being shot by police because I have a gun out. At least, unlike the undercover or plainclothes officers who've been shot, I'm generally not going to have my weapon drawn for an extended period of time. That seems to be a common thread in these instances, the officer has a weapon drawn for an extended period of time and was pointing it at someone. This poses an imminent threat to a civilian as far as the shooting officer is concerned, justifying shooting.

Another common thread is the usage of an plainclothes cops where uniformed should be the ones handling the situation. Uniforms are used by the military for a reason. Verification of allegience at a distance. Plainclothes should be used only where necessary, with careful coordination with all police in the area.

If we were to legalize drugs&prostitution, we'd eliminate 99% of the 'need' for plainclothes officers. You don't need to be out of uniform to investigate crimes like shoplifting, robbery, rape, murder, etc...

 

[Josh Aston]

Also, if he's a K9 unit, why didn't he send the dog first?
Yesterday 10:04 PM

A dog is not lethal force, so why would you send less than lethal force against lethal force?


P.S. I fully realize that a dog is capable of killing a person, so are batons, but neither is considered lethal force.

 

[walking arsenal]

Shouldnt the title read "Plainclothes officer shot by uninformed cop"?

This is a weird one.

It will be interesting to see how it all sorts out.

 

[Aguila Blanca]

Overall, it sounds like virtually an instant replay of the incident a few months back where the undercover officer was shot by a uniformed officer at a football game parking lot keg party.

 

[Colt]

I carry, knowing full well that if I'm forced to use it that there's a risk of being shot by police because I have a gun out. At least, unlike the undercover or plainclothes officers who've been shot, I'm generally not going to have my weapon drawn for an extended period of time.

This line of thought goes a long way in supporting the "don't draw your gun unless you plan to use it" school. There's always a lively discussion on THR when the "if you draw, shoot" crowd argues with the "sometimes you can diffuse a situation by merely drawing your weapon" crowd.

When you draw your gun in hopes of diffusing a situation, or holding a BG for police, your chances of getting shot go up, up, up. In my mind, holding a drawn gun on someone is like holding a timebomb. The longer it's out, the higher the potential things can turn for the worse.

I think it would actually be less risky to draw, fire, and reholster and/or drop the gun, depending on the circumstances, witnesses, etc... Less risky for you, anyway. The BG's risk goes way up in this approach, obviously, as he isn't given a second chance.

 

[Kentak]

Very, very tragic.

It's probably best to withhold judgement about fault, or whatever, until the investigation is complete. I think it's unfair to anyone to speculate about what or what not may or may not have happened.

K

 

[Firethorn]

Colt, just what I was trying to say.

Pull gun, use gun, put gun away. If he runs, well, I'm normally going to let him, unless he's a terrorist, spree killer or something where I'm convinced that he'll do something bad again before the cops can get him.

If I'm actually looking at holding BG down, I want to be on the phone with the cops, or at least an informed bystander(former victim?) on the phone with them giving them my description so the cops know the guy wearing x clothing with a gun is a CCW holder currently detaining a suspected(heavily) felon.

If at all possible, I'd prefer to use cableties or something to otherwise make the BG unable to commit violence, so again, I can put the gun up.

 

[Colt]

Firethorn,

Seems we are of a like mind when it comes to how we might be perceived by others.

 

[porschefan]

It's getting to the point where you just have to take cover and let the cops shoot each other while you escape. Is it just me or did things like this not happen years ago.

Yes, up here in New England. Rhode Island officer in plainclothes shot and killed by responding officers.

In that case it was also a black officer, also in a less than stellar part of town. His father was a very high ranking officer in the department.

 

[kjeff50cal]

I hate to suppose but I think it was a case of tunnel vision on the part of the uniformed and undercover officer. The uniform because all he saw was a person not in uniform with a gun and also the plainclosed cop thinking he (the uniformed cop) wasn't talking to me because I am a cop in uniform or not and he would not.....Bang....... .

 

[marinr]

I agree with Bullfrog.

We need to address the underlying thought process. It begins with the assumption that the only people who should have guns are police officers, and proceeds to the further assumption that anyone but a uniformed officer who has a gun is automatically a threat to police (whether they actually DO anything threatening or not).

As an armed citizen, if I demonstrated that kind of thought process in my own defense I'd go to prison.