Please critique my plans

[Griff]

I’ve been trying to learn as much as possible regarding CCW issues prior to our return to the States on a permanent basis and appreciate the great resource that this gathering of experience and talent offers. Thank you all for sharing.

Having said that, I’d like to ask some questions.

Firstly, regarding the actual hardware choices, I’ve pretty much settled on a small, simple hideout piece like a P3AT in a neck holster for everyday carry, for several reasons:

1. I like the ambidextrous placement, which I’ve already proved for myself with experiences from a neck wallet and Cold Steel Safekeeper III knife. Accessibility thru a dress shirt could be speeded up with a little bit of tailoring to include some sort of Velcro or snap closures with fake buttons sewn on top to keep the original appearance, and a normal (or, even more tactically, a breakaway) tie would help concel the outline. (Please see this review: http://www.cruffler.com/accessory-review-march-01.html for more info)

2. I live a pretty low-threat lifestyle, but could easily upgrade to a larger blaster, if need be, since we plan to live in the North West, a cold, wet climate, and everyone wears coats. As my work keeps me in very secure locations (Big Brother communications), I would be more concerned about what might happen during the drive home or to the mall. Being in the car, the 1911, M66, shotgun, RPG, etc would be available in the gun safe (another link, for example: http://www.gunsafeshop.com/mossberggunsafe.htm ) if needed.

3. I’m not going to war with this setup, and only view the pistol(s) as one layer of a more comprehensive plan, to include other weapons, tactics, and training.



Second, I’ve been toying with the idea of a bullet- resistant vest that looks like, well, a vest. Think 3pc suits here. You’d have your protection on top, hidden in plain sight, not crammed under everything else. Pipe dream?
I’ve searched “executive protection†and “Kevlar†and many others, as well as the major manufacturers, but have yet to see this product. Is this possible, if not already available?



Any opinions, experiences, or resources you could provide would be of enormous help.
Thanks in advance.

 

[Vern Humphrey]

I think the general concensus is the best method of concealed carry is with an Inside the Waistband Holster. This allows carrying a larger weapon with greater security. There are tuckable IWB holsters which allow you to carry under a shirt.

You might ask WHY you're carrying a gun? Like you, I don't live in the "wild west." But at the time and place you NEED a gun, you're in the wild west with the bark on it!

Or to put it another way, there is a kind of paradox in the idea of carrying a gun because it's small and convenient, but may not do the job when you need it.

Kevlar vests have to be TIGHT. The idea is that the bullet cannot defeat the tensile strength of the Kevlar yarn, so it must carry the whole vest along with it. If the vest is loose, the bullet can move a good distance before being brought up short -- I know of one instance where a bullet went between the ribs of an officer wearing a loose vest. While the skin wasn't broken, they had to cut the vest off him, then break his ribs to get the bullet out.

 

[Griff]

Thanks for the info, Sir, lots of good things to think about there.
Regards

 

[another okie]

I think you will find neck carry annoying and slow to draw. If you are going to be spending time in a secure environment where handguns are not allowed consider a Kahr micro polymer 9 or a snubbie and pocket carry. Pocket carry allows you to disarm quickly. I suppose you could put the P3AT in your pocket. Be sure to get a pocket holster that covers the trigger.

The best way to carry, if it is feasible, is undoubtedly strong side on the belt, either IWB or OWB, whichever you can conceal best. You can find strong side holsters that are easy to remove as well. And you can carry a much more powerful gun this way.

Finally, your comment about risk makes a common logical error. You are confusing two categories, likelihood of risk with type of risk.

You may be in a low risk job and location, but if someone does in fact attack you the attackers will probably be just as they would be in a high risk environment - two or three large and possibly hopped up criminals. Something a little more potent might be nice in that situation. In other words, it is good to do things to lower your risk of an attack, but recognize that the attack, if it comes, will be brutal and quick, whether you are in a high risk or low risk environment.

 

[Griff]

Thanks again, knew I was missing something obvious, but couldn't put my finger on it. I appreciate all of your insights.
As I said earlier, I'd much rather look a fool here, now, than a statistic there, later.

 

[Sleuth]

Your vest idea has been around for about 20 years. Most of a major manufactures made "3 piece suit" vests, but...who wears 3 piece suits any more? everyone is going casual, so now concealable armor is popular.

How did you intend to acess your neck holster while wearing body armor? If you wear it over the armor, it will be obvious. Under the armor, inacessable.

 

[Griff]

Yeah, that could be a problem.
Thanks again.

 

[MolonLabe416]

Various thoughts.

Welcome home!

The neck carry is a serious violaton of Rule 2. I'd be very uncomfortable walking around with the muzzle of a weapon pointing at my head. It would also seem slow and not intuitive.

An IWB will allow you to carry a full size 1911 or Glock 23 sized weapon comfortable and discreetly with just a bit of practice and attention to your wardrobe. This is my primary carry method. Secondary is a standard Blade Tech strong side holster.

I also live in the NW, just outside of Bellingham. It's easy to wear some form of vest, polartech about half the year, Concealed Clothiers or a light sweater or an untucked denim shirt over a t-shirt here so concealment is no concern.

When I need deeper concealment I carry a S&W Airweight Centennial in my strong side pocket in a $10 Uncle Mikes pocket holster. I also have a $40 leather pocket holster. I forgot it on a trip an bought the Uncle Mikes as an expediant. It works just as well and is considerable lighter. I've not used the leather one since.

If I were buying again, I'd take a strong look at the Kahr PM-9 for pocket use. Same weight as the Smith, slimmer, holds more ammo, easier to shoot well.

As for a vest, I think your best bet is a standard police type vest that is worn under you shirt. I toyed with the idea, but didn't think it was required in my circumstances.

I'd add a knife and a small flashlight. I always have a SureFire Executive and a Photon mini-light on my person.

And last, whatever you decide, get some training. Gunsite, Thunder Ranch - which btw is moving to Oregon in 2005! Yeah for us! - Randy Cain, Jim Crews, Bill Jeans et al.

Good luck with the move.

 

[Gocart]

Without a doubt, get professional training. After you own your first defensive pistol, the cost of training is the best money you'll ever spend on shooting. The right training teaches you not only to shoot like a pro, but more importantly, it teaches you to win the fight!!

Yes, that's right, shooting and fighting are two different things entirely.

 

[orangeninja]

No offense but terrible idea about the kevlar and gun.

Kevlar is heavy, hot, nasty and not 100% effective. Not only that, it has to be tight. I wear kevlar a lot and it sucks. I would never wear it off duty unless I knew I was going some place ugly....but then....I probably wouldn't go.

The gun. When crap happens and you need a gun....YOU NEED A LOT OF GUN!!! A .22 or 25 will not be satisfactory.

 

[Griff]

Thanks again, Gentlemen.

Still stuck in Euro (job thing) so trying to learn as much "on paper" before we get back home. Thanks for the welcome, anyhow.

2 ideas that I'd thought OK debunked; this is exactly why I posted. You guys have saved me a lot of time, trouble, and cost. Hope I can return the favour somehow.

Regarding training, wife and I had already made the decision to attend Mr. Haye's place http://www.firearmsacademy.com/ at our earliest opportunity, and this facility, as well: http://www.rmcat.com/ (gotta have options avaliable)

I currently own, and/or carry, a Surefire E2E retinal re-arranger, various Benchmade, Cold Steel, and CRKT products (she has "my" Rainbow Leek), kubotan key ring, Louisville Slugger, 6-cell Maglite, rattan bo, etc etc, and have various amounts of training for em all.
Guess it's back to the original plan to get his-n-hers 1911s and J-frames.

Sounds like we're generally on the right track, just need some more fine-tuning.



Cheers, Ya'll

 

[orangeninja]

might I recommend "SIGs"? If you can afford a good 1911 then you can afford a Sig. For starting out, I would go simple and get a Sig. The 1911 is what a lot of people consider simple, but with the grip saftey, hammer bite, lock saftey and magazine pinch, you HAVE to learn to use this to be effective with it just like any other gun. However, Sig has less of a learning curve and an awsome resale value if you decide to trade up. That being said....

Santa...for next Christmas I want a Les Baer Thunder Ranch PULEEZZZZ!!!

Also, since you are not allowed to carry a gun, but you carry edged weapons....get a TASER....those things rock. Non lethal but good Lord can they cause a grown man to wet his pants.

 

[Griff]

Kahr Pm9 sounds like a good idea, have to see how they work out for us.

Sigs sound pretty cool, too, 220 in particular. Never shot one yet, though.

We're going on a quick vacation to Vegas later this month, so will be checking local ranges for various rentals to audition. HK PDW, here I come!

Got shot with a Taser once, at a recent expo. I saw stars and had to be held up by 2 bigger guys when the wasps landed. They asked me to take my glasses and leather jacket off, first, though, probably prior consideration for property damage. I wasn't trying not to get hit, or fighting mad when they got their clear shot, though.
(Sorry, I don't remember the specs or brand name, but if you'd like to search for a vendors' list feel free to Google "2003 Land Combat Expo, Patrick Henry Villiage, Heidelberg, GE")
Still; I'm gonna have to call "Pass". Thanks anyway. I don't want to have to try and figure out if the gun I grabbed is real or not.

I understand that Fox Labs does about the best Pepper Spray, and that most people reccomend Cone/Mist config.





Durn, this is turning out to be a lot of hardware to juggle...How'sabout a .38 and a Swiss Army Knife and we'll call it even?

Run away, run away....

 

[Sleuth]

The Gun Store in Vegas has all kinds of rental guns, including subguns! It's a better place for your money than the slot machines!

 

[Griff]

Thanks, Sleuth, this the place?

http://www.thegunstorelasvegas.com/

 

[Sleuth]

Yup! I've been in there several times, but I have never rented a gun there. Staff seemed OK, left me alone to browse.