Please excuse a newbs question on saigas

[lastditch]

For those of you who convert, is wood furniture an option? I like the saigas I've shot, but like the traditional look of wood on AKs. Pics would be nice if possible.

Many thanks in advance.

 

[ByAnyMeans]

When doing your AK the furniture is usually a bunch of compliance parts. So to do your AK in wood it would have to be american made. The only guys I know doing that are

http://ironwooddesigns.com/IWDsite/IWDHome.html

They may be pricey but are very good.

 

[WardenWolf]

Indeed it is possible. However, you will need to get a bolt-on handguard retainer and or have your barrel notched for the retaining pin. The Saiga can take a standard AK-74 gas tube with no modifications. Dinzag Arms has the bolt-on retainer you'll need.

You do, however, have to satisfy 922(r). This is easy to do. A stock Saiga rifle only has 14 countable foreign parts. Replacing the trigger group gives you 3 of those parts. The magazine will give you 3 more, allowing you to put full foreign furniture plus pistol grip on your Saiga. Given that a Saiga would have to have a bullet guide installed to take a standard AK magazine, anyway, you might as well buy the SGM / Surefire magazines.

Here's my converted Saiga .223, wearing Romanian wood furniture:

 

[mshootnit]

there are also new American wooden stock sets from Tapco. The ones I have seen are laminate.

 

[WardenWolf]

American wood stock sets are so expensive that you're better off getting the extra compliance parts and using genuine foreign wood. After replacing the trigger group, you've got 2 ways to make it compliant with foreign furniture:

(1) only use US-made magazines

(2) use foreign mags but replace the floorplate, and use a US-made pistol grip.

Even though 922(r) is almost completely unenforceable and would almost certainly not pass courtroom muster due to it relying on definitions that no longer have legal standing, the ATF claims you have to comply with it. So that's how to do it in the easiest and cheapest method possible.

 

[nalioth]

Indeed it is possible. However, you will need to get a bolt-on handguard retainer and or have your barrel notched for the retaining pin.

This is only needed if you wish to run milspec furniture.

Ironwood and other custom makers provide hand guards that attach to the factory Saiga mounts.

American wood stock sets are so expensive that you're better off getting the extra compliance parts and using genuine foreign wood. After replacing the trigger group, you've got 2 ways to make it compliant with foreign furniture:

(1) only use US-made magazines

(2) use foreign mags but replace the floorplate, and use a US-made pistol grip.

Magazine parts are not a good idea, IMHO. To be compliant 24/7, you'll need to outfit all your magazines, and you'll never be able to borrow one at the range or from a friend without potentially making yourself a felon.

Even though 922(r) is almost completely unenforceable and would almost certainly not pass courtroom muster due to it relying on definitions that no longer have legal standing, the ATF claims you have to comply with it. So that's how to do it in the easiest and cheapest method possible.

Yeah, ATF "claims" you have to comply with the law. How about the fact that it is the law of the United States, no matter what the ATF claims?

We don't thumb our noses at the law here on THR.

 

[WardenWolf]

If he wants genuine AK furniture, what I described is the way to do it. And it's a heck of a lot cheaper than buying Ironwood Designs products. They have some nice stuff, but it's not cheap, and they also don't stain it for you. You're just buying bare wood that you still need to finish.

And again, it only matters if he installs a bullet guide to let him use standard AK mags. And the fact that floorplates are cheap. And the fact that you almost never share mags at the range, particularly when you have a ton of cheap AK mags for yourself. Most people don't like the idea of drilling on their trunion right next to the barrel, where bullets go over every time you shoot. Particularly with the round trunions where you NEED a drill press. Most likely he'll just be using Surefire / SGC magazines.

And as for 922(r), I'm not thumbing my nose at it. I'm still saying he needs to be compliant, and providing information on how to do so. My own rifle is fully compliant. I'm just saying it's generally unenforceable and probably wouldn't hold up court muster, which IS true. I'm stating fact.

 

[nalioth]

Nalioth, please stop trolling the Saiga threads. We're all sick of this, and you've been warned multiple times about it.

Really? "You" may be sick of my responses, but I'd hardly call them "trolling".

If he wants genuine AK furniture, what I described is the way to do it. And it's a heck of a lot cheaper than buying Ironwood Designs products. They have some nice stuff, but it's not cheap, and they also don't stain it for you. You're just buying bare wood that you still need to finish.

Wow. We are sure of ourselves, aren't we? If it's "the" way to do it, why have others posted links to Ironwood Designs and handguards that attach to the factory mounts? Also, "cheaper" is quite subjective, don't you think? If he OP doesn't really know how to work on an AK or hires someone that really doesn't know, and the job isn't done right, I'd not call that "cheap".

And again, it only matters if he installs a bullet guide to let him use standard AK mags.

When last I looked, you could buy Saiga-specific "non sporting" magazines - which require no bullet guide be installed. If inserted into a non-922r-compliant Saiga, these'll still get you a felony.

And the fact that floorplates are cheap. And the fact that you almost never share mags at the range, particularly when you have a ton of cheap AK mags for yourself. Most people don't like the idea of drilling on their trunion right next to the barrel, where bullets go over every time you shoot. Particularly with the round trunions where you NEED a drill press. Most likely he'll just be using Surefire / SGC magazines.

So which is it? Will he need a bullet guide to run milsurps or is he going to run Saiga-specific US-made varieties?

I'm just pointing out the possibilities.

And as for 922(r), I'm not thumbing my nose at it. I'm still saying he needs to be compliant, and providing information on how to do so. My own rifle is fully compliant. I'm just saying it's generally unenforceable and probably wouldn't hold up court muster, which IS true. I'm stating fact.

The way you say it pretty much alludes to 'you can ignore it'.

Do you want to be responsible for the guy being the first to be charged, all because you told him (not in so many words) that it was okay to violate 922r?

 

[Girodin]

f
Nalioth, please stop trolling the Saiga threads. We're all sick of this, and you've been warned multiple times about it.

Nalioth is very likely the most knowledgable forum member on here when it comes to AK platform guns. It would be very very folly to dismiss his opinions out of hand.

Perhaps you are sick of him correcting you, but those seeking good information very likely appreciate his input.

I have learned a lot about AKs from his posts and esteem him as a particularly good source of info.

Even though 922(r) is almost completely unenforceable and would almost certainly not pass courtroom muster due to it relying on definitions that no longer have legal standing,

Definitions w/ legal standing? Do you know what legal standing means? I hear people say all the time it is unenforceable. I did a very cursory search of Lexus Nexis some time back and guess what I found, a case with a conviction for violating that section of the federal code. It was a case that dealt with someone tinkering with SKS rifles but it certainly disproves the baseless idea that it is unenforceable. Suggesting such is demonstrably untrue.

Your saiga advise from what I have read on this forum is so-so, your legal advice is horrible.

 

[WardenWolf]

Girodin, consider this: I've developed my own easy method of attaching a Harris bipod to a Saiga rifle with the stock handguard, I've converted this thing from the ground up, bagged game with it, and I most definitely know my way around an AK. I know what a newbie is going to feel comfortable doing with his gun. Generally, installing a bullet guide is NOT one of them, for obvious reasons. I'm not going to suggest he do something that, if he messes it up, will permanently damage his gun. I'll tell him about the OPTION, but I won't suggest he do it.

There are multiple ways of obtaining compliance, but I am showing him the cheapest and easiest methods to avoid having him muck with components like the gas piston since I know, from research, that the replacement gas pistons never fit as well or as tightly as the originals. I considered that with my rifle, but dropped the idea after research told me I was going to wind up doing precision drilling on a curved surface, and that the replacements were supposed to be loose and have some wobble to them.

My intent: I want him to have the best rifle he possibly can when he's done, and not spend a fortune. I don't want him to screw with the tolerances of the original Russian action and introduce things that will lead to it not functioning as well as it does originally. As a result, I'm suggesting things that keep the integrity of the rifle intact and have minimal impact on the receiver. I know what a properly converted rifle is capable of. I've hunted with my Saiga and bagged a javelina, using the exact setup pictured except I used the original handguard with a bipod. That's my preferred setup. The original poster's will probably vary and he'll want different furniture that suits him.

What it all boils down to is this: you have to factor in the knowledge and the abilities of the original poster when providing advice. If he said he was a professional machinist with a drill press and other tools, my advice would have varied. People have done all sorts of things with these rifles, but not all options are suitable for a newbie. But the beautiful thing? As long as he doesn't mess with the action now, he can always go back and make those changes later.

 

[Girodin]

bagged game with it,

Is this the the poor Javalina that you struck in the leg and then fortunately were able to finish off with multiple subsequent shots?

I know what a newbie is going to feel comfortable doing with his gun.

Your ability to read minds is most impressive.

I've converted this thing from the ground up

Congrats, it is a simple job. On the scale of mechanical difficulty 1-10 I would rank it a 2. I've done a a bunch of them in the various calibers and gauges offered, but what does that have to do with the price of tea in China? My point was Nalioth knows whats and your saiga advice is so-so. I don't think converting one gun (or even a handful) makes one an expert by any means.

Compliance by mags has notable drawbacks. Rather than taking up a position you would help the OP more if you simply explained the pros and cons of various approaches and that would allow the OP to make an informed choice. That is better than assuming your choice is right for him.

I've hunted with my Saiga and bagged a javelina,

And this is pertinent to anything discussed how? Further based on the report you wrote of that hunt and the fact you hit it in the leg and then had to fire multiple more times to finish off the poor thing I'm not sure I'd brag. I've hunted enough to know not all shots result in a DRT animal but missing the vitals completely on ones first shot is not something to continually be boastful about. Personally I'd be ashamed.

What it all boils down to is this: you have to factor in the knowledge and the abilities of the original poster when providing advice.

How does telling him 922r is unenforceable, or that foreign furniture is better because its cheaper, or a number of your other opinions have anything to do with his mechanical ability? Oh and I'd point out the OP made no representations about his mechanical ability; so, you are going off your own blind assumptions and didn't actually take it into account at all.

In sum, I stand by my statement, to wit, based on what I have read of your posts about saigas your advice on them is so so and your legal advice is just plain horrible. Further, Nalioth, based on his posts I've read on this forum and others, is someone I would listen carefully to when he talks about AKs. Those are my opinions, irrespective of the number of little pigs you shoot in the leg, using a scope at a very reasonable distance no less.

 

[WardenWolf]

Not my fault the damn scope decided to wait until hunting day to come loose. My crosshairs were dead on, and I'd carefully sighted it in with the ammunition I was using the week before. If anything's going to go wrong, it's in the field, though, and the rear mount had vibrated loose, most likely on the rough road, and the shot went low, but still hit at 100 yards. The scope also got broken when the rifle got dropped on a rock. Go figure. I did my due diligence to ensure my rifle was ready for the hunt, but sometimes things just don't work out. I DID finish it with a hit to the vitals, though. Heart and double lung. Bad things like that happen to even professional hunters. But fact is, I tracked down and got my animal, and finished it cleanly.

 

[Girodin]

$60 dollar scopes have a way of crapping out at inopportune times. Personally I wouldn't use the word diligence to describe putting one on any rifle let alone one I hoped to ethically hunt with. What do I know though?

Your first report never mentioned a loose scope. I wonder when that "diagnosis" was made. More to the point even if you had shot the thing on the run at 300 yards through the eye with iron sights, that is neither here nor there in relation to anything discussed in this thread.

 

[rbernie]

Claims and counterclaims of competence levels need to be taken to PMs; they have nothing to do with addressing the OP.