Please stop hunting with 220gr 300 BLK subsonic

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In the couple of years since Texas made it legal to hunt with a can, we have seen several people come out to the ranch to take does with subsonic 300 BLK. The results have been almost uniformly terrible.

IMO, there are two main issues at play:

1) The low velocity bullet just doesn't put things down. There simply isn't enough energy in it to cause the kind of wounding that puts animals away cleanly without a head shot. We even had one guy who claims to have success with the round state that his normal MO is to put one round in the animals shoulder to knock it down and keep it from running away then a second round in the head to kill it. That's just not right.

When we clean deer that have been hit by high velocity rounds, what used to be organs in their chest cavity pretty much glop out in gloppy clumps. Subsonic 300 BLK pretty much punches a bullet sized hole through the animal, leaving everything inside mostly the way it was, minus a bullet sized hole. Now, I know there's an argument to be made about using slower bullets to save shoulder meat and for the people that like organ meat. I get that. I'm just talking about killing the animal dead as reliably as possible.

By the numbers, subsonic 300 BLK is trucking along with about the same energy as a 1911 firing .45 ACP +P Gold Dots. Now, I know someone out there hunts deer with a 1911, but I think we can mostly pretty much agree that should not be the norm for the vast majority of hunters. Can it be done? Of course it can. You can kill deer with a .22. It requires perfect shot placement though. Which brings us to my second issue.

2) Holy arcing rainbow shot Batman! I think my Father in laws crossbow shoots as flat as a subsonic 300 BLK (sarcasm, but not by much). I always kind of thought that the guy who brought the hold over placard hunting with him was just trying to be tacticool, but great jumpin jeebus if you don't need one with a subsonic 300 BLK. The bullet drops 8 friggin inches between 75 and 125 yards... You know, the range where you are going to be getting most of your shots. I've never used my laser rangefinder so much in my life as when a subsonic 300 BLK is hunting on the ranch.

Of the three does that were shot on the ranch this year with 300 BLK: One went down after a 40 yard run, which is perfetly normal. One doe was recovered the day after the hunt, several hundred yards from where it was shot, and judging by the blood pool had laid down and bled out for quite some time before passing. The third was never recovered... It's blood trail just stopped after about 200 yards of tracking it. No more droplets, no dead deer anywhere nearby.

In the hands of expert shooters, I'm sure this round does fine on deer sized animals. In the hands of the average shooter though, it's just not humane. Unless the bullet goes straight through the heart or brain, the animal is not going to die quickly.
 
The problem is that some people, no matter what the facts say, are determined that their new "toy" is suitable for every shooting task just because they WANT it to be that way. I can slap a 20X scope on my .45 Auto Ordnance Thompson carbine, but that does not make it a suitable long-range prairie dog gun, no matter how much I talk it up.

This phenomenon seem especially true with wannabe "operators" and their military-styled rifles.
 
I'm assuming you no longer allow hunters to use the subsonic 300BO since it doesn't work?
 
tarosean said:
Click
That with our pint sized TX deer?

The recovered doe weighted 135lb, which is a little bit on the larger side for our does, but not by much. Our does usually weigh in mid 120s.

crazysccrmd said:
I'm assuming you no longer allow hunters to use the subsonic 300BO since it doesn't work?

It is being very strongly considered for next season. We haven't had a chance yet to have a sit down review of what worked this season and what didn't since we are still running hunts. .223 is already on the list of family use only for doe management. I suspect next year the subsonic 300 BLK will be too.
 
You are going to catch flack for dissing a fad. But then, you are the one who has to track the wounded deer, right?

Looking at the .300 AAC Blackout ballistics I see:
(bullet weight at velocity for impact energy)
125 gr at 2,215 ft/sec for 1,360 ft/lb (standard)
220 gr at 1,010 ft/sec for 498 ft/lb (subsonic).

Historically I have read:
The .32 Winchester Self-loading cartridge for the Winchester Model 1905 Rifle
165 gr at 1,392 ft/sec for 710 ft/lb was not a deer hunting success.
The .351 Winchester Self-loading cartridge for the Winchester Model 1907 Rifle
180 gr at 1,870 ft/sec for 1,400 ft/lb was a deer hunting success.

If a 710 ft/lb load failed to impress the average deer hunter (or deer), what is chance of a 498 ft/lb load working for all but the few hunters honestly capable of surgically precise shot placement?

What is the point of the 220 gr .300 Blackout round? To "offer subsonic performance greater than the current standard 9mm Luger round" in ARs with cans. The subsonic 9mm Parabellum is 147 gr at 990 ft/sec for 320 ft/lbs. The 220gr Blackout beats the 9mm subsonic as an antipersonnel round, its niche purpose. Its purpose is not deer hunting with the average hunter.

I'd think of using the 125 gr .300 Blackout for deer, but not the subsonic load.
 
The problem with most 220 grain subs is lack of expansion. To get a good kill, you need penetration and expansion. If the right bullet is used, subsonics can be effective. Two that come to mind right off is Lehigh Defense and Outlaw Bullets. They both have subsonic bullets that will work on hogs and deer.

I have had good results on hogs with Lehigh 174gr, controlled fracture ammo with my 9.5" suppressed 300 B.O.

edit to add:
Nosler/Noveske new 220gr hunting round..http://www.nosler.com/noveske-ammunition/
 
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Ah, the truth about slow. Many do not understand the slow bullets punch holes but do not do tissue damage. Every thumper fanboy will be on here bragging about knock down power which doesn't exist in big game cartridges.
 
45-70 makes a 50% bigger hole before any expansion. That causes much more rapid blood loss.

I used to want a suppressed 300 bo. After research and looking into it more i think I want a suppressed 458 socom instead just for better killing power.
 
The issue quite honestly is one of bullet shape and construction. Any hunting bullet made for 1600-3000 fps is not going to expand at 1000 fps. A quick glance through midway's website didn't show any rifle bullets made to deform under 1400 fps. Heck even the bullet manufacturers specifically warn that their rifle bullets should be considered nonexpanding in game at normal handgun velocities. (By the way, hollow-point target bullets are not made to expand and should be treated as an FMJ. You might get a tumble, but it is not consistent or repeatable performance.)

So with factory ammo going to have to agree with the OP. There just isn't good reliable options readily available. Maybe a lubed pure lead bullet with deep hollow point or truncated cone with a wide meplat would work?
 
Hey Click I'll come hunt all the deer you want me to. I'll use a .270win flinging a 130gr Accubonds at 3019fps. But seriously its your land so you make the rules regardless if people like it or not.
 
Heck you don't get consistent results with SMKs at rifle velocities, only a fool would think they'd work "good" subsonic. If i absolutely had to use subs in my BO I'd try a 208gr A-Max at least they should give some expansion.
 
It is being very strongly considered for next season. We haven't had a chance yet to have a sit down review of what worked this season and what didn't since we are still running hunts. .223 is already on the list of family use only for doe management. I suspect next year the subsonic 300 BLK will be too.

Maybe next year, you just don't allow ARs to be used in any cartridge and state a minimum that you feel is appropriate - it IS your land, so your rules apply even if the state says something else is also legal to use.
 
JD Jones said the killing mechanism of the original Whisper was the 250 gr SMK yawing over and causing a low velocity wound the shape of the bullet profile.
Kind of like a broadhead arrow hit or swordthrust, a wide cutting wound.
Who knows what all the substitutes are doing on impact.
 
45-70 makes a 50% bigger hole before any expansion. That causes much more rapid blood loss.

I used to want a suppressed 300 bo. After research and looking into it more i think I want a suppressed 458 socom instead just for better killing power.
If I remember correctly, that was the reason why arms designers prior to the invention of smokeless powder tended to keep making larger diameter rifle rounds. You're only going to obtain so much velocity with black powder, so to increase terminal performance, an increase in bore diameter and bullet weight was needed.

I could be mis-remembering some factoids, though.
 
Jason_W said:
I don't know, the .45-70 has a pretty good track record.

A well earned one too. We've never had a problem with hunters using .45-70 or .458 SOCOM failing to put their animals down. There is something to be said for big bullets.


oneounceload said:
Maybe next year, you just don't allow ARs to be used in any cartridge and state a minimum that you feel is appropriate

ARs come in too many flavors, some of them quite effective against deer. Heck, the .223 is effective against deer in the hands of a competent shooters, but we never really know what we are getting so we don't allow it for the clients.
 
It's the indian in this case and not the arrow. The indian needs to know the capabilities of the arrow.

I treat any sub sonic round fired by a rifle to be more or less the ballistic twin of a .22 rimfire. It doesn't matter if it's fired from a 300 BO, 243 win, 30-06, 338 Lapua etc etc. Shot placement is the key with any of them.

Maybe the OP needs to ban the shooter that doesn't know the difference between the capabilities/terminal ballistics between hyper and sub sonic rounds.
 
This kind of stuff pisses me off. I get that subsonic 300 BLK is the cool thing to be into lately, and that all the mall ninjas out there agree that it gives +10 to operator. The thing is it's NOT FOR HUNTING and I get a bit pissed when people put animals through unnecessary suffering for the sake of a fad. Use your heads people; Subsonic 300BLK is for humans not animals. That deer isn't going to be impressed with your Tacticool Rifle and neither is any ethical hunter or gun owner.
 
I have experience with hunting and the 300 blackout. Most subsonic ammo that you can purchase over the counter is fmj. The lack of power along with a fmj bullet is a very close range cartridge. We have shot many pigs with the blackout and the subsonic round doesn't have the expansion needed to transfer the energy for a lethal kill.

I believe its a popular round but in the real world isn't any better than a .45.

For the money i would buy a 7.62 X 39mm and then a special purpose suppressed .45. In the long run with the cost different in ammo prices you could have two rifles and a endless supply of ammo.
 
I took a deer this year with a 194gr max expander loaded to just barely subsonic. She was a small doe and I got a broadside heart and lungs shot. The exit wound was significant and the organ damage was considerable. Granted I hit the heart and lungs to begin with, but the Lehigh defense bullets really work for subsonic. They absolutely do what they claim. She ran 75 feet and fell down dead.

I have taken many deer with my 30-06 and the wound channel is definitely wider and more pronounced. I use 180gr Barnes TTSX bullets. They are hammers.

I do hunt in CT though, and don't get shots much past 120 yards max. So blackout works for me. That being said, I consider myself a very good shot and very familiar with my blackout rifle. I wouldn't take a shot past 120. I would completely understand discouraging the round for a ranch with longer distance opportunities.
 
There are a couple of things you can do to increase the odds when hunting with .300 BLK:

1. A 2" high zero at 50yds gives you plus or minus 2" from 0-100yds, which is a 4" circle out to 100. This helps cut down on range estimation errors; which is critical because shot placement is a major factor with subsonics.

2. Expanding (Lehigh 194gr, Fat McNasty's expanders, cast lead) or controlled fracturing bullets (Lehigh; but doesn't feed in ARs). All of these give you a bigger wound channel and increase the chance you get that hit that solves the problem.

Even with these, I think the OPs analogy to bowhunting is not a bad one. This isn't a beginner round if you want a clean, humane kill. I honestly don't think the 220gr SMKs are a good choice for that. I'd limit those to strictly target shooting. I'm not all that sure the 208gr AMAX is much better in that regard.
 
Some observations:

1. Some hunt with a bow shooting arrows that don't expand and are subsonic (gasp).

2. The most dangerous animals in the world are hunted with bullets that don't expand.

3. Some people bitch because bullets expand too much.

4. Some say magnums shoot bullets so fast they "zip right through doing very little damage."

5. Bullets used by our military aren't designed to expand. Yes, I know, some say that the idea is that it's more effective to wound than kill which is a bunch of horse feces.

6. Hundreds of deer have been taken with round lead balls that weren't designed to expand.

7. Hunters bitch if a bullet fragments. Actually there was a bullet a few years ago that was designed to do just that but it didn't do well on the market.

Now we have a bitch session on how bad the 300 Blackout is. You guys need to take a powder.
 
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