Please talk me into, or out of, a 9" 300 Blackout...

[Bobson]

A couple weeks ago, I decided to start planning for my next AR build, which I decided would be an 18" DMR type rifle. While researching that build, I stumbled across some info on 300 Blackout, and started daydreaming about having an SBR.

Long story short, I started thinking a 9" 300 Blackout pistol would make a great HD weapon. Great in terms of ballistics, energy, maneuverability with such a short platform, yada yada I basically guzzled the kool-aid. Here's the thing. If I get this gun, I won't get a suppressor for it. For the same reason, I won't add a stock and make it an SBR. I just can't bring myself to give in and file paperwork and pay a fee and wait months and months just to give the Feds another reason to put my name on a list somewhere. Call it paranoia or whatever you want; I'd just rather go without those toys than play their stupid NFA game.

So, all that said - is there any reason to buy/build a shorty 300 Blackout if I know:
(1) I'll most likely never suppress it (unless this hearing protection act passes), and
(2) I'll almost definitely never SBR it.

Now, on the flip side...

If I did decide to suppress it and SBR it, would it suddenly become a much more practical HD tool? I want to be talking INTO this, but I'm a lot better at talking myself out of guns than into them.

Thanks for the help.

If it matters at all, the upper I'm looking at is this frustratingly attractive BCM offering:
https://www.bravocompanyusa.com/BCM-9-300-BLACKOUT-KeyMod-KMR-A8-p/bcm-urg-300blk-9-kmr-a8.htm

 

[adcoch1]

This is my 8.5" 300 blk pistol. A home built side charger, but other than that a quick bolt together. I use a sling attached to the shockblade forearm brace in two positions looped over my head and one arm and pull the pistol away from me putting my cheek on the end of the buffer tube. Very stable that way, not quite rifle stock stable, but better than any handgun I've ever used. I also have SBR paperwork coming that this upper might end up on. I tried it on a friend's sbr lower, and it was even better than my pistol setup. Mostly because it's an intuitive shoulder mount instead of thinking about using the sling and pushing the gun away from you. Both are awesome, and even with supers and no suppressor the short barreled 300 blackout is a pleasure to shoot. A lot quieter than 223, especially in a short barrel configuration.

 

[Bobson]

Thank you for your input. The info about sound is certainly helpful; I didn't realize it's a more quiet round across the board.

One of the other things I hadn't even considered until now is penetration. One of the things that makes the AR (in 5.56/223 specifically) such a great choice for HD is the reduced likelihood of overpenetration through typical house walls, Sheetrock, etc - due to the high velocity of the caliber. Rounds that miss and hit the walls will typically fragment or break apart quickly, reducing penetration and risk of injuring or killing an innocent in other room, or outside one's home. In contrast, pistol calibers tend to penetrate further, and punch through greater numbers of walls, because their lower velocity leads to less consistent expansion. Even quality JHP from a pistol tend to simply fill with sheetrock material and then perform very much like an FMJ.

Does this mean that a 300 Blackout (subsonic) will act more like a poorly-performing pistol caliber, than like what we've come to appreciate about 5.56/223 in HD employment?

 

[jmr40]

In the grand scheme of things an AR pistol with an 8-9" barrel still isn't nearly as compact as a traditional handgun. For that matter not much smaller than an AR rifle with a 16" barrel and the stock collapsed. Other than being quite I'm not at all impressed with the ballistics of the 300 BO with any bullet weight even from a rifle.

I'm of the opinion that a traditional handgun is a better choice for HD/SD in close quarters. AR rifles or even handguns can work at close to moderate ranges, but I just don't see an AR handgun having any real advantage over a rifle. And the rifle certainly has the advantage at moderate to longer ranges.

 

[Walkalong]

I'm not an AR pistol fan either, but a suppressed SBR in 300 BLK would be some kind of sweet, if it just wasn't for all the hassle and paperwork. I guess if I ever did the drill the first time it would be child's play after that, but I just haven't done it.

I enjoy my 16" 300 BLK AR very much, and it would be a great defensive choice in any but the tightest quarters (Inside), where I would prefer a handgun for ease of maneuvering.

An SBR 300 BLK with a shorter than 16" barrel/suppressor overall might be a great option inside though, and a rifle will beat a pistol all the time for me.

 

[Armored farmer]

I am willing to share a few thoughts on the subject.

My last build was a 10.5 inch 5.56mm, sig braced, pistol.
The sig brace makes it a pistol, not a SBR, so no extra paperwork. I used takedown pins and the whole package fits in the 10x20.5x4 case shown. The reflex sight has unlimited eye relief and provides quick and defined reticle.
I also have a .22lr conversion kit for it, adding to its versatility.
I put it through its paces yesterday. It is well suited for my purposes and a fun shooter. My 53 yr old eyes don't shoot a handgun like they once did. This gun bridges the gap for me.
I carry a mouse gun edc, and this ar is kept nearby.

 

[BSA1]

The 300 BO is on my build list also. I say try it, you may like it.

Before I go the SBR route with it I am thinking of building it first as a handgun. If I like the performance then I will SBR it. If not I will cut bait and sell the upper so that way I am not out the time and money for a tax stamp.

 

[Tirod]

I built my 10.5" in 5.56, but .300 is enjoying some popularity now and the same company making Mk262 for the MK18 and CQBR just got tapped to provide .300 for the FBI if I remember correctly.

As far as a shoulder mounted weapon being intuitive that's going to be hard to sort out considering it's ingrained position in culture. Re the pistol, it's even harder to hold that way because there is no toe of a stock to help hold the weapon up to the line of eyesight, which is already higher than most rifle. So a lot of AR pistol shooters just hold over the shoulder anyway, which keeps the head up, and use a normal nose to the charging handle hold, because there is so little recoil. A .300 will likely have more, so your mileage will vary.

Penetration is something else - I haven't yet seen any normally accepted self defense cartridge that can't penetrate two layers of 1/2" rock typically used in American home construction. There's a lot of testing and assertions, but for the most part what I have seen is that most will penetrate not only the wall but often the couch, kitchen appliances, and even a lot of bathroom tiling. Bookcases aren't immune either. The real issue is getting into a gun fight inside a building in the first place, but this is where the AR pistol does offer a serious advantage - 30 round mags compared to 12 to 17 in a handgun. Make no mistake an intruder is NOT going out shopping for low penetration ammo, and that he doesn't care what he hits should gunfire occur. Since many of us will confront them near an exterior door with our family behind us, it would be far better to initiate serious firepower to stop them shooting thru cover and hitting our loved ones.

I'll forego the usual observation that you done already failed the rest test of "HOME" security by accepting that an intruder somehow got in, armed, with "good reason" to shoot you. So many things went wrong up front that what firearm you choose as a last ditch effort is almost ridiculous. It does go to so many considering it, tho. Apparently they all agree their home security is lousy and just any thug on the street can practically walk in. Or maybe they are simply making decisions based on fantasy. I see it as an amalgam of both.

I have no issues with the OP's choice. I stuck with 5.56 so I could shoot $7 a box import steel case at the range as .300BO isn't readily available at those prices. And I hunt with it in both MO deer seasons. It carries enough power out to 60-80m which is about how far I can see to shoot where I hunt. Shot placement is more important.

Enjoy the .300 and do take it to a range where you can test penetration. You will observe exactly what it really does and then likely conclude that knowing what lanes of fire in the home where you can't or shouldn't discharge the weapon might be more important. Seeing that bullets aren't slowed much by sheet rock gives insights into the real tactics of use.

 

[ilbob]

Do what you want. I am not a fan of AR or AK style handguns. They just seem unwieldy to me. But YMMV. For me I want a stock and a sling on something that big.

Best bet would be to see if you can get some shots downrange with whatever you are thinking of getting and see if you like it first before going farther.

I don't think an AR of any caliber is a terrible HD gun (maybe not ideal - but not terrible), but a SBR with a silencer on it seems like you are defeating the purpose of a SBR, which would appear mostly to make it easier to use in confined spaces.

Having said that, it is your money and if you want it there is no reason you should not get it. This is America after all, and we are allowed to indulge ourselves to the extent our wallets allow, at least for the most part.

 

[Sistema1927]

I went 8.5" in both 5.56 and 300 AAC

 

[Telekinesis]

I don't think an AR of any caliber is a terrible HD gun (maybe not ideal - but not terrible), but a SBR with a silencer on it seems like you are defeating the purpose of a SBR, which would appear mostly to make it easier to use in confined spaces.

Putting a suppressor on a SBR let's you have a suppressed, hearing safe (in the case of .300 subs) rifle that is the same length or shorter than a normal 16" barreled rifle. If you were to just put the can on a title 1 rifle you're looking at an exceedingly long package.

For example my .300 blackout SBR has a 10.5" barrel, mated with my 8" suppressor you get an approximate overall length similar to an 18" title 1 rifle (assuming 1/2" for overlap of the threads). That gets you very close to the length of a normal 16" barrel with a flash hider.

If I were to put the same 8" suppressor on my 18" rifle (SPR-ish nightmare of a build), it would be something approximatig a 25.5" barrel length. That's very long if you're talking about using it indoors.

Shortening the barrel basically gives you room to mount a suppressor without adversely affecting the handling of the rifle.



Back to the OP...
As stated above, I have a .300 Blk SBR that started life as a pistol while I was waiting for the stamp. Apart from doing a basic function test I never shot it in pistol form because I just never liked it without a stock. This was in the days before the Sig brace and other things of that nature really got big so I've never tried using one of those.

Defensively, I wouldn't use subsonic ammo. Heavy rifle bullets generally have a hard time expanding at subsonic velocities. That means even if the bullet is a SP or HP, it's just going to act like a FMJ (there may be a few out there now that do expand at low velocity, so you should check into that). You also loose one of the big wounding advantages of a rifle which is the speed of the round. If you aren't going to suppress it either, there's no reason to use subs as you'll still have an explosion around 155-160dB or so which is still very painful. Slightly quieter than a short 5.56, but still very loud. Definitely in the "I want ear pro" realm.

Also on the "list" thing: if you're an active poster on forums like this and aren't using countermeasures to keep yourself from being tracked, the gov already has you on a list somewhere. Just look at the recent CIA data from Wikileaks. Surely if they are doing all of that they can have a program make a list of potential "right wing terrorists" or whatever they think we are, complete with IP, name, and location. Don't let the fear of being on another list keep you from doing what you want.

 

[redbullitt]

# 1 you are on plenty of lists already. We all are.

Here is my take on it. I like the 300 blk for a number of reasons, primarily for its utility as a SBR. My house gun is a a 10 inch 300 blk with a stumpy little suppressor on it. VERY handy, quiet enough, and loaded with good supersonic ammunition I trust it to work. Velocity is plenty adequate and accuracy is good. 556 though a barrel this long tends to be very blasty even suppressed and I am not sold on its ballistic performance from a short tube.

You can load subsonics that are pretty quiet and very fun, as well as supers that are plenty effective on deer sized game, all from a short handy weapon that can fill a defensive role well. 1800 to 2000 fps is very attainable even in the short barrel. Good bullets like barnes are meant for the 300blk, and should do a great job. Lehigh makes expanding subsonic bullets too if you are after something like that. Cheap 30 cal bullets are easy to find for plinking fodder. It also plays well with cast bullets if you are so inclined. Very good versatility there.

I have shot a couple deer with the barnes bullets, both at about 40 yards. I would do it again, and it seems like it would do the job on 2 legged predators as well. Just have to be careful what bullets you select. Most 30 cal are designed for 2500 fps or more, we need something closer to 7.62 39 or 30 30 style. Speer makes a 130g for the 30 30 that works very well and is affordable.

I was never a fan of AR pistols, but if I had to use it proper political correct usage guidelines would not be on my mind and it would be just as effective as any SBR... much better firepower than any carry pistol. Other than that they are a great way to enjoy to gun until your stamps come in and try it out. Some states have goofy rifle laws in vehicle, and an ar pistol CAN be kept ready where a rifle cannot.

My rifle was supposed to be a pistol... just like your idea lol. I enjoyed it that way while, but wound up going for the stamps. It only took like 6 months, which is not that bad if you have ever had custom gun smithing done... think of it like that if you need to lol. You would enjoy the gun more this way imho. I shoot the gun very well as a suppressed SBR, and it is mild enough to not be miserable when fired indoors. I think it is an excellent advantage if the rifle is ever needed. No brainer for me there.

 

[Charger442]

I went 8.5" in both 5.56 and 300 AAC

those are cool stocks, i like them!

 

[adcoch1]

those are cool stocks, i like them!

Not a stock, that is a forearm brace. And they work better and look better than the sig brace. Less clunky.

 

[Charger442]

Not a stock, that is a forearm brace. And they work better and look better than the sig brace. Less clunky.

Can you change the length of pull on them?

Looks kinda short like it would be tough to seat correctly against your shoulder

 

[cougar1717]

So, all that said - is there any reason to buy/build a shorty 300 Blackout if I know:
(1) I'll most likely never suppress it (unless this hearing protection act passes), and
(2) I'll almost definitely never SBR it.

If I did decide to suppress it and SBR it, would it suddenly become a much more practical HD tool?

IMHO, those are the best reasons to build a 300BO - short and suppressed. Even if you don't reload, if you get a chance to look at the reloading data, it really tells the tale of the tape. 300BO uses what are typically considered magnum handgun powders. Consider 110's @ 2300 fps; 150's just under 2000 fps; 180's just under 1800 fps; 220's just under 1100 fps - hodgdon's data from a 16" barrel - less from a shorter one. (I'll leave you guys to debate how much less). So it's in magnum pistol caliber carbine territory. With typical .308" bullets, the only ones that are going to open up at those velocities are the lightly constructed ones in the 110-130 maybe 140gr range, as was mentioned before. I admit, 30 rounds/mag is definitely enticing, but I'd honestly rather have a handgun for HD than an AR pistol from the ones I've fired. Handguns are better balanced, easier to hold on to, and easier to point shoot at close distances. But if it's something for fun - no problem. (I would consider reloading for it though.)

 

[Bobson]

Can you change the length of pull on them?

Looks kinda short like it would be tough to seat correctly against your shoulder

That's just it. They're not designed to be shouldered. They're essentially sleeves that cover the pistol buffer tube. If using on a pistol, as opposed to a registered SBR, shouldering it is actually illegal. Instead, it's supposed to simply act as a cheekweld and "stabilizing fin." And yes you can change the length of pull, but not nearly as conveniently as on a standard collapsible buttstock, as this particular brace has a tension bolt (?) designed to keep it in place.

It's called the Shockwave Brace by KAK if you're interested in looking into it further.

 

[Bobson]

I really appreciate all the responses. I'm still kinda undecided and will need to give it more thought. These days it seems like there's no shortage of hobby/outdoors-related stuff I'm wanting to buy. Hiking/hunting boots and generic hunting gear, survival & Bug-Out kit stuff, my recent hate-to-love relationship with tactical crap I really don't need (NVGs? Really?)... sigh.

 

[adcoch1]

Ar15 stuff is relatively cheap. The problem is there is lots to try out. I would not have this ar pistol if not for two reasons. I love building things, guns especially, and, i wanted to test the SBR characteristics of a short barrel on the ar platform. The funny thing is i then discovered how much firepower you can have legally concealed with a ccw. Washington state doesn't allow loaded rifles in the car( a mag in the gun is loaded) but with a ccw i can have my pistol in the car. That is the niche that makes an ar pistol valuable to me. Otherwise i just use my 44 Redhawk when i want this level of per shot power.

 

[Girodin]

Long story short, I started thinking a 9" 300 Blackout pistol would make a great HD weapon. Great in terms of ballistics, energy, maneuverability with such a short platform, yada yada I basically guzzled the kool-aid.

A few thoughts:

It might matter what else I already owned. Do you have a 5.56 braced AR pistol? Do you have a braced 9mm pistol (AR, scorpion, MPX, etc)? Do you handload? How often do you plan to actually shoot it and train with it?

If I was going to use it for HD, I would want to use supersonic loads, specifically Barnes 110 grain black tips. Outside of a few specialized and expensive bullets, most sub sonic 300 BLK loads offer very poor terminal ballistics. And I wouldn't choose any of them over supersonic (particularly if you wont have a suppressor). In my estimation, particularly at ranges inside 100 yards (and HD is would be well inside of that), I don't see much advantage to a 300 BLK SBR or braced pistol firing subsonics over an equivalent 9x19 mm firing 147 grain gold dots or the like. My 9x19s get way way way more use than my BLK, largely due to the cost of shooting each. It is cheaper and easier to load 9x19 sub sonics. I have 9x19 SBRs that are more handy than the 300 BLK SBR.

Firing super sonics the only real advantages to 300 BLK a 5.56 gun I see at HD distances is that the 300 is less blasty than a 5.56 and you can have an 8-9" barrel with reasonable terminal ballistics whereas I prefer not to go shorter than 10.5" for 5.56. I think once you are talking using supers only it begs the question of using a 7.62x39 alternative simply due to the cost of practice ammo.

Personally, outside of very niche tasks there is almost always something that can do what I want to do with a 300 BLK at a lower cost. Shooting suppressed subsonic: I shoot way more 9x19. Shooting super sonic 300 BLK: for most purposes I can do what I want with either 5.56 or 7.62x39. Often if 5.56 doesn't do what I want I'm inclined to use a .308. For me, the 300 is a very very versatile round that is best suited to SBRs and niche uses. That said for just about anything I might do with it there is something else I'm generally more inclined to use. If I could go back in time knowing what I know now, I wouldn't go down the 300 BLK road but that is me, my uses, my preferences, and the other guns I own.

 

[Varminterror]

Interesting timing. I just had a guy reach out to me about building him a 300blk pistol with the intent to hunt deer. I'm typically an opponent (experienced at least) of the 300blk for big game hunting, but his context does make sense - his state is shotgun only, which, for some reason, includes handguns... Even AR pistols.

So I'll be building an AR pistol in 300blk for him very soon, picked up the lower yesterday.

 

[MCMXI]

I have a DDM4300s with a 10" barrel and DAA SANDMAN-S suppressor attached, a Streamlight LED mounted to the lower rail (deleted the vertical foregrip), a sling and a bunch of mags loaded with subsonic ammunition. For me this is a great HD package. I live on 20 acres so HD could mean pretty much anything. I have the red dot zeroed at 50 yards but a 220gr subsonic drops about 6" at 100 yards. With the stock collapsed it's a relatively compact package. I also have other firearms at hand but would grab this one first for a number of reasons. I'm planning on modifying a couple of lower receivers to make this a full auto package and hope to buy another just like it later this year.

 

[MCMXI]

I'm of the opinion that a traditional handgun is a better choice for HD/SD in close quarters. AR rifles or even handguns can work at close to moderate ranges, but I just don't see an AR handgun having any real advantage over a rifle. And the rifle certainly has the advantage at moderate to longer ranges.

I think most people can shoot a carbine faster and more accurately than a pistol, even at close ranges, and particularly if you're sending 220gr to 230gr lead downrange.

 

[Varminterror]

I think most people can shoot a carbine faster and more accurately than a pistol, even at close ranges, and particularly if you're sending 220gr to 230gr lead downrange.

Absolutely. It won't handle as quickly, but it'll put more rounds on target faster.

 

[Ruezim]

Here is the info from my blackout build with price break down. It is a nice shooter with supers but subs would get FTF 3 out of 5 rounds. I built it before the shouldering it made it a rifle so I had added extenders to the buffer to make it about a mid stock length. Worked great I use a single point sling now to pull it away from me. Here is my thread about it.
www.thehighroad.org/index.php?threads/almost-finished.763393/#post-9713033