point shooting home study course

[Matthew Temkin]

On The Firing Line some seem to believe that OK JOE and his system is somehow associated with myself, 7677, Brownie and others who teach point shooting.
Nothing can be further from the truth.
While I find many good things on OKJOE's website, I do not agree with his basic premise of using the middle finger to shoot and having an object bolted onto the weapon to assist in this technique.
I realize that Joe calls his system Point & Shoot or P&S for short, but it has nothing to do with QK or FAS point shooting.

 

[okjoe]

The method is not MINE guys and gals.

I was told to use it way back in 1954 by a WWII Sgt when shooting my greasegun from the hip.

Walter J. Dorfner the long time lead firearms instructor for the Vermont SP (now deceased), developed and experimented with the method on his own. He wrote a paper on it, which can be found in digest form on my site. We both had it published.

Those of you who are fine and happy with the CQB miss rate of more than 80%, just keep on a doing whatcha are doing.

I won't be critical, just hopeful that you won't ever be shooting around me or "backing me up" if I was ever to get into a situation where that was needed.

Also, the aiming aid can be attached with VHB or similar tape if you like (look at the picture). And one is NOT required to be used. You also can pull the trigger with your left index finger. Always use safe gunhandling practices and common sense.

Now, here's part of a comment I received some time back:

"Your aimed point shooting technique is certainly interesting, but it is not an especially new one. Derringers and other pocket pistols, for example, have been depicted being shot with the middle finger as the trigger finger. In the late 70s or early 80s, Soldier of Fortune magazine ran a feature on a modified Sten gun which was best fired with the middle finger.

The British Special Operations Executive (SOE) of World War II also taught the technique. See, for instance, the following passage from the now out-of-print book "Kill Without Joy" by John Minnery (Paladin Press, 1992; originally appeared as part of the Paladin book "How to Kill, Volume I, 1973). On page 51 of KWJ it discusses the assassination of Lee Harvey Oswald by Jack Ruby: "The grip on the gun is also interesting and further backs the suspicion of Jack being a pro. He's using his middle finger to squeeze the trigger and his index finger, the normal shooter's trigger finger, is pointed right at the target. He shoots where he points.

This method is not too well known in the States but the method was SOP with wartime SOE and SIS agents of Britain."

I hope you find this information useful...."

Have a nice day.

 

[Matthew Temkin]

Wait a second...
Is it your position that the police hit rate will be increased by shooting with the middle finger?
Or by teaching unsighted shooting alone?
Or by teaching point shooting along with aimed fire?
Quite frankly you are beginning to confuse even me, so I can only imangage how a newbie feels.
While it is true that Minnery mentions that OSS assassians were taught to use the middle finger, the vast majority of WW2 instruction involved the usual trigger finger.
Applegate did teach a method of single firing a sub gun while it was set on full auto, but that involved slapping with the extended (normal) trigger finger--not using the middle finger.
In any case, I just wanted to clear up any confusion.

 

[Roundeyesamurai]

I was told to use it way back in 1954 by a WWII Sgt when shooting my greasegun from the hip.

I doubt you were "told" to use it- more likely you were shown it.

This would not surprise me, since ALOT of bogus ideas floated around in the Army of the 50's- the idea of duplex ammunition being a prime example.

Walter J. Dorfner the long time lead firearms instructor for the Vermont SP (now deceased), developed and experimented with the method on his own. He wrote a paper on it, which can be found in digest form on my site. We both had it published.

Most police firearms instructors (especially "the old school"), have their own little tricks or gimmicks that they show off once in awhile. One rarely-used trick out of his (voluminous) bag does not constitute a "system".

Those of you who are fine and happy with the CQB miss rate of more than 80%, just keep on a doing whatcha are doing.

I won't be critical, just hopeful that you won't ever be shooting around me or "backing me up" if I was ever to get into a situation where that was needed.

Care to tell us exactly what credentials you have that entitle you to make a comment such as that?

Gunfighting experience, for example?

That's an extremely inappropriate comment for you, who has never so much as SEEN a gunfight, to make about people who have survived them (and, by your tone, including many who have survived them multiple times).

This method is not too well known in the States but the method was SOP with wartime SOE and SIS agents of Britain."

No, it wasn't "SOP".

 

[Matthew Temkin]

I sure hope we can keep things civil, so as to avoid having this thread closed.
I am curious as to how many views this will eventually attract.
For the record, RES is a friend of mine who is a been and done police officer/special warfare veteran and certainly is entitled to his very informed opinions.
It is just my hope that this thread will not degenerate into a pissing match.

 

[Roundeyesamurai]

I sure hope we can keep things civil, so as to avoid having this thread closed.
I am curious as to how many views this will eventually attract.
For the record, RES is a friend of mine who is a been and done police officer/special warfare veteran and certainly is entitled to his very informed opinions.
It is just my hope that this thread will not degenerate into a pissing match.

Thanks for the vouch, Matt.

As far as OKJoe- If you really want to do a service to pointshooting, give your domain name to someone who will make good use of it, to publicize VIABLE pointshooting methods, rather than making all of us pointshooters look bad (as you do).

There are several qualified candidates in this thread alone.

 

[okjoe]

Below is a link to the digest of Walter's paper on the subject. He approved of it as written and it was published as written.

I think it qualifies as more than a gimmick and it certainly was not written as such, unless what you infer is true, and that is that all police instructors are just gimmick mongers.

I don't believe that for a NY minute.

Also, I was told that P&S as I call it, was SOP. I have no basis for saying such myself. I try to rely on my own experiences, or what I have been told/read by others.

That some don't like me having a site on PS, that's 2 bad 2 sad 4 them.

Why not start your own?

It's still a free country last I heard.

My site is mainly a dull and boring, mainly text site, on PS that is now getting 100K+ hits per month. And IMHO that is OK.

Here's the link to a digest of Walter's paper: www.pointshooting.com/pands.htm

And here's a pic of the evil and devilish P&S method:

 

[Roundeyesamurai]

I think it qualifies as more than a gimmick and it certainly was not written as such, unless what you infer is true, and that is that all police instructors are just gimmick mongers.

DO NOT put words in my mouth.

I said that firearms instructors accumulate a bag of tricks over time. Anyone who spends a lifetime working on something does.

YOU have not, at any point, been a police officer.

YOU, by your own admission, didn't TOUCH a firearm for nearly 50 years.

YOU, by your own admission, have NO direct experience in the matter.

The fact that you insist on being percieved as relevant, despite (or, according to you, BECAUSE) of these factors, is absurd.

Also, I was told that P&S as I call it, was SOP. I have no basis for saying such myself. I try to rely on my own experiences, or what I have been told/read by others.

What experiences would those be? I'm sure that anyone considering your method would like to know about your credentials.

That some don't like me having a site on PS, that's 2 bad 2 sad 4 them.

You and your site make the rest of us (legitimate pointshooters) look extremely foolish. The fact that you are incapable of recognizing that fact, or (as suggested by your post) that you RELISH in making the rest of us look foolish, is precisely why no other legitimate point shooter will allow himself to be associated with you.

My site is mainly a dull and boring, mainly text site, on PS that is now getting 100K+ hits per month. And IMHO that is OK.

100,000 hits a month? I don't buy that for a second. Prove it.

 

[SkyGuy]

Hey, we all make mistakes. I actually read all the posts in this thread.

In my opinion, any relevant tactical information could be summed up in about ten posts that concern point shooting.

After that, there's way, way too much ego......and not enough info!

Bottom line: Just send for Matthew's 'point shooting home study course'.
.

 

[Roundeyesamurai]

Hey, we all make mistakes. I actually read all the posts in this thread.

In my opinion, any relevant tactical information could be summed up in about ten posts that concern point shooting.

After that, there's way, way too much ego......and not enough info!

Bottom line: Just send for Matthew's 'point shooting home study course'.
.

For more info, no ego, and Matt's material along with a considerable amoutn more (and no Middle Fingers!), visit here:

http://www.threatfocused.com/forums

 

[Matthew Temkin]

Hey, we all make mistakes. I actually read all the posts in this thread.

In my opinion, any relevant tactical information could be summed up in about ten posts that concern point shooting.

After that, there's way, way too much ego......and not enough info!

Bottom line: Just send for Matthew's 'point shooting home study course'.
.

Actually my home study course is already available here--courtesy of OKJOE's website.
My lesson plan, however, is free for the asking via e mail at [email protected]

 

[Matthew Temkin]

For more info, no ego, and Matt's material along with a considerable amoutn more (and no Middle Fingers!), visit here:

http://www.threatfocused.com/forums

That is the site of Brownie, SweatnBullets and 7677.
Brownie has a stickey there on how to teach yourself QuickKill and is well worth a visit just for that information.

 

[okjoe]

Below is a link to site stats. Hits last mo were 100K+ and looks like the same this Mo. The trend has been up not down.

There is world wide interest in the subject matter. And some folks have hijacked some of my images and placed them other places which has resulted in some hits that I discount to a degree. However, even those can lead to other hits as people backtrack on them.

http://stats.pointshooting.com/

For those wanting to set up a plain site, my site is hosted by omnis.com

Hosting is cheap and domain registration is cheap as well.

Learning basic HTML is easy and instructions are available on the net. You don't even have to know HTML to do basic stuff.

Anyone can just copy my pages, put them into a text editor like Wordpad and change the text.

It is relatively easy how to figure out how to include pics and the like. Monkey see, monkey do.

I use Brandyware's free FTP software to upload files:
http://www.brandyware.com/downloads.htm

Sites like THR which have web thread forum software, get mega hits by comparison, and are much more sophisticated and complex.

Hey, why not jump in, the water is fine, and it may keep your brain working.

Expect a slow start and depending on your subject matter, some to a lot of static, rantings, and ravings.

 

[SkyGuy]

Oh, c'mon guys.
How many ways can point shooting be dissected?
It's not rocket science and it requires only minimal skills. At close range, just point and shoot. The farther away from the threat, expect more misses. Add in bad light and you'll really miss.

Sure, some guys that earn their living by touting their particular twist on point shooting....and then devote their lives and tens of thousands of rounds of ammo to their style of point shooting....are undoubtedly good shots.
Hey, so am I.

But, the average recreational shooter gains little close up poi improvement past the basic moves of point the gun at the threat and shoot.
That's point shooting 101; just point the gun and shoot! Quick draw means little to nothing.
I suppose the perpetual students and the bored hobbyists will always seek more 'education', but that's certainly not necessary for Joe next door.

Geeeeez!

Anyway, I started a thread here under 'strategies and tactics' and I asked a very relevant and very important question about an everyday situation; Self Defense Tactics for Bad Eyes and Old Guys?

Got a few intelligent responses there, but it seems that most of the experts are here arguing acronyms, minutiae and philosophy rather than sharing good information.
Where are the Jim Cirillos of THR?

Sure would like to see the expert gunslingers contribute their expert knowledge to that thread and post their definitive answer to a very important issue.
.

 

[Roundeyesamurai]

and it may keep your brain working

I was going to make a comment about medications for senility, but I won't.

 

[Roundeyesamurai]

Skyguy- I'm not entirely disagreeing with you, but I have a question:

How many point shooting instructors/methods have you been exposed to?

 

[SkyGuy]

Skyguy- I'm not entirely disagreeing with you, but I have a question:

How many point shooting instructors/methods have you been exposed to?

Trained in one way back in the Army AB.
Exposed to about six different variations of threat focused point shooting. I use a personalized combo of Cirillo and Applegate...if that has any meaning.

Beside the financial considerations of the various techniques, they all seem to boil down to one basic method: look at the threat, point the gun and shoot.

I've answered your question. Will you answer my question in the thread about 'Bad Eyes and Old Guys'?
.

 

[brownie0486]

"Exposed to about six different variations of threat focused point shooting. I use a personalized combo of Cirillo and Applegate...if that has any meaning."

Six variations? Please name them and who exposed you to them for us. How long were you "exposed" to them [ in other words, how many minutes or hours do you have on them? ].

Is your knowledge based on real training with live instructors on these variations or simply reading a book or watching a video?

I didn't know there were six variations [ that have ever been considered viable ] to beign with.

"Beside the financial considerations of the various techniques, they all seem to boil down to one basic method: look at the threat, point the gun and shoot."

That would be as basic as you can get. Is that the exposure you mention? Basic in nature, with no real understanding of the nuances between the different systems?

You want people to answer your question in the other thread and I notice some have mentioned the CT lasergrips without you pushing their use and commenting on them vehemently like you were here:

http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=193646

Any particular reason why you would post redundantly there and not even give them a mention when others comment on them in your thread?

"How many ways can point shooting be dissected?
It's not rocket science and it requires only minimal skills. At close range, just point and shoot"

Your line over there was "just place the dot and hit the spot", now it is "just point and shoot"?

Thats a very interesting observation don't you think?

btw-I got your pm the other day and don't feel the need to respond to it, perhaps I'll post it here so everyone can see the REAL you.



Robin Brown

 

[Roundeyesamurai]

Trained in one way back in the Army AB.
Exposed to about six different variations of threat focused point shooting. I use a personalized combo of Cirillo and Applegate...if that has any meaning.

Beside the financial considerations of the various techniques, they all seem to boil down to one basic method: look at the threat, point the gun and shoot.

I've answered your question. Will you answer my question in the thread about 'Bad Eyes and Old Guys'?
.

Sure I'll post a reply- and it's a topic with which I am wlel-acquainted, as I will post over there.

I, too, would like to hear the six variations- because, judging by your posts, you've only really scratched the surface of what is available with pointshooting methods.

I can hear several different orchestras play The 1812 Overture, and if that's the only music I'd heard them play, I might hold the position that there's nothing to orchestral music aside from drums and cannons.

 

[SkyGuy]

btw-I got your pm the other day and don't feel the need to respond to it, perhaps I'll post it here so everyone can see the REAL you.

Here, let me help you, Brownie. This is the verbatum text of my pm to you. I would have posted it in the thread, but you and your boys were posting ad hominum and no facts. Therefore the thread was closed.

To: "QK 'Master' Brownie and his 'licensed handgun qk instructors' )

Well, you boys have certainly demonstrated that your QK self-defense method and marketing is off to a rocky start.

When you can't even discuss the hows, whys and merits of your method and your best defense of your method is ad hominem attack….you're in big, big trouble. People expect professionalism and more than crap-talk for their hard earned money.

If my recent e-mails and pm's are any measure of your failure to communicate your message and your piss-poor public relations, then your 'commercial training endeavor' is doomed before it gets off the ground. Remember Gunsight.

In spite of the fact that you fellas are, indeed, morons, I did my best to keep the discussion of Lasergrips and point shooting on an adult level....while you goofs descended into bitterness, parsing and questioning minutiae. That's bad public relations, a suck image and not very smart.
Get some marketing expertise because you fools are already destroying your QK image!

It's amazing how you boys have convinced yourselves that you're cutting edge, yet you're stuck in the past and blind to technological advances and the obvious tremendous success of Crimson Trace's Lasergrips and laser sights.

Instead of embracing technology and incorporating it into your decades old self defense training….like I have and Jim Cirillo has and Ken Hackathorn has, et al....you boys flunk out miserably because your training is no more than another variation of point shooting.
Old hat, nothing new.

Our trainees are enlightened beneficiaries of both the old proven methods and 21st century technology. Your trainees are not. They're stuck in the past because you 'instructors' are stuck in the past.

Think about this, too: You tell people how to gunfight and you've never been shot at. You guys have absolutely no concept of what it's like to fight for your life. All your info is from books, movies and your imagined fantasies. You're not me nor are you Jim Cirillo, et al.

You talk stupid things like shooting on the run with 90% hits on paper targets. Even if you could do that, where the hell does that gimmick fit into a firefight? Run/shoot is suppressive only, any hits on a person is luck.
Your threat will either be in cover or moving....not a stationary, exposed piece of paper!
If you had any clue what a firefight is like you wouldn't be talking that 90% nonsense. How silly!

A word to the wise: Swallow your pride, minimize your inflated egos, reread my critique….and learn from it or your failure is waiting to happen.

But, unfortunately for you boys......"your mind is your limiting factor"."
.

 

[Jeff White]

Well we're straying a little too far into personal differences and egos to stay on the High Road. That's all for this thread.

Jeff

 

[SkyGuy]

I, too, would like to hear the six variations- because, judging by your posts, you've only really scratched the surface of what is available with pointshooting methods.

You don't get it.
All the minutiae, cryptic counseling and slight variations of point shooting just don't matter. I shoot very well at car length distances.
My simple approach works and it doesn't cost hundreds or thousands of dollars to learn.
It's self explanatory. At point shooting distances....look at the threat, point and shoot.

Again, it's not rocket science!

If you want to, send me a couple hundred dollars and I'll send you an embossed copy of how to point shoot.