Police chiefs don't want to arm retired or off-duty officers

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Hawkeye755

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Copyright 2003 Gannett Company, Inc. USA TODAY
March 4, 2003, Tuesday, FINAL EDITION

WASHINGTON -- The country's top police chiefs are in the middle of a lobbying battle with rank-and-file officers over a plan that would let about 1.5 million retired and off-duty officers carry concealed weapons nationwide.
Supporters of proposed legislation are casting the officers as a ready militia against any terrorist threat. The plan is under consideration in the judiciary committees of the House of Representatives and Senate.

Much of the opposition is coming from the International Association of Chiefs of Police and the Police Executive Research Forum. They say the plan would undermine local authority and "dramatically elevates opportunities for tragedy," IACP analyst Gene Voegtlin wrote last week in a bulletin to its 20,000 members.
Police chiefs in Florida, Arizona and other retirement destinations are particularly concerned.

"It's hard enough to keep track of the people in our own departments, let alone people we don't even know are in our communities," North Miami, Fla., Police Chief William Berger says.

The Fraternal Order of Police, the nation's largest association of street officers with 300,000 members, says the plan is necessary for a country confronting a high risk of terrorist attack.

"When the public safety is threatened, (officers) will have the tools to respond appropriately," says Tim Richardson, a legislative analyst for the FOP. "You're talking about a class of citizens who are trained to react and to respond to all kinds of incidents."

If approved by Congress, the legislation would allow retired and off-duty officers to travel with their weapons outside their home states without fear of prosecution. Officers would be allowed to carry firearms, except for machine guns, as long as they met annual testing standards in their home states.

The Law Enforcement Alliance of America, a coalition of police officers, crime victims and citizen groups, estimates that the legislation would apply to about 1 million retirees and 500,000 off-duty officers on any given day.

"This was a good idea before Sept. 11, but it's a great idea after Sept. 11," says Ted Deeds, the alliance's chief executive officer. "Everything indicates that the next attack is likely to happen in our communities. This (legislation) puts armed, trained people in our communities with the tools to do something."

Most states require individuals -- including off-duty police officers -- to obtain permits to carry concealed weapons. Those permits generally do not extend beyond home states.

Previous attempts at passing a concealed weapons law -- including an effort in 1999 -- have stalled in Congress. This time, however, supporters say a convergence of factors, including the elevated threat of terrorism in the United States and recent congressional action that would arm commercial airline pilots, could help their cause.

There also is strong support in the Senate, where 38 members from both parties are co-sponsors. The proposal may face the most opposition in the House. Judiciary Committee Chairman James Sensenbrenner, R-Wis., says it would undermine states' authority to regulate gun-carrying privileges.

A spokesman for Sensenbrenner says the proposal remains a low priority for the committee this session. But Rep. Randy Cunningham, R-Calif., a chief sponsor of the House plan, believes there is more than enough support this time.

Spokesman Gordon Johndroe says the Department of Homeland Security was unaware of the legislation but would review it.

The Justice Department is not expected to take any position on the legislation
 
Judiciary Committee Chairman James Sensenbrenner, R-Wis., says it would undermine states' authority to regulate gun-carrying privileges
or in other words, it would undermine the states' authority to infringe the right to keep and bear arms. (Don't ask me where this authority comes from).
 
Uhm, just gotta ask.

"Those permits generally do not extend beyond home states."

I dunno 'zactly, but what states might those be? Seems there's become a swath of reciprosity lately. "Generally" could be accurate enough, but it's changing enough to be misleading, if not a lie (or a misunderstanding of how the law works, which throws him into the Chief Moose category - one or the other)

""It's hard enough to keep track of the people in our own departments, let alone people we don't even know are in our communities," North Miami, Fla., Police Chief William Berger says."

Puke & misleading liar.

AFAIK, FL is one of THE most reciprical states going - as long as the proscribed training, etc. allows such.

So, just as a quick read/study ..... I am not[/I] in favor of granting retired/off-duty cops anything other than what the normal person "enjoys" as an exercize of their own liberties - any more than any active-duty cop. Sorry, but based just on prinicple.

Seems there's been discussion based on the use of "civilian," right?

Either cops are "civilians," or they aren't - & off-duty, or retired are more so.

I'm ex-military & ex-LE w/some fairly specialized training. Why can't I be eligible? & there's certainly "civilians" who are much better qualified than I who will not be either - not to single myself out (just to draw an example at my own expense).

Kudos enough to FOP for proposing it, but where's the consideration to other members of the community who have similar, or better skill-sets?

IMNSHO, these "sane" LEO-types had better dial into their best supporters/assets = the common, every-day law-abiding citizen who has frankly had it with the idea that "only cops" can do it for you. You (FOP, et ilk) had just better enlist us - & perhaps "throw us a bone" in your own fight for legitimacy.

Not a slam at cops per se, but one must ask the question of "why are just you so special that you deserve extra attention while we others do not." There's a ton of us out there who would jump on this bandwagon in a heartbeat, if you'd only consider that we too have similar skill-sets - some better than anyone active.

I guess the "small steps" syndrome. Well, that's the reason why they aren't getting anywhere & why (Oh Why!) there is absolutely nothing akin to anything ..... Argh! Homeland Defense (sic), for all it's perturbations is supposed to do just that, right?

So, why is it "they" aren't using any of those who have training regards anything akin what they need to "protect us?" (quick aside - Larimer County, Co has a posting for a Dam Guard. Job description is "searching swim-beach patrons' backpacks & ice chests for those who'd wish to swim - at our mud hole. You see, the "beach" is well within the 100 foot posted "off limits" - proximity to our Dam #2 .... can you all heave together?)

Just more political posturing & ploys to advance their own agenda & nothing to do with saving one - not one, life.

Makes me just sick to my stomach - all of it.

[/rant]
 
& I did space this in my last ....

The law-abiding gun-owner (vast majority of us) & the law enforcement community should be THE most natural of allies - we do want the same thing.

But, we aren't - we have been fractured/sundered.

Your own "administrative types" have bought into the lie the politicians have passed & many of y'all enforce these clearly illegal laws.

(Note I didn't say "unconstitutional" because they haven't been ruled as such - yet. But still, you know them to be illegal under either federal, or your own state contitutions. They just haven't yet been ruled "unconstitutional," so they are still "legal" - so to speak.)

I am absolutely in favor of all LEO-types (ex, post, retired, whatever) being allowed to CCW in any state, just as I am in favor of the rest of us being allowed the same "priviledge."

I may even be argued into the "well regulated" clause in The Second - we'll see.
 
Judiciary Committee Chairman James Sensenbrenner, R-Wis., says it would undermine states' authority to regulate gun-carrying privileges

Yah--Right--

There are NO gun carrying privileges in Wisc-- They have no CCW permits and do not recognize off duty police as "peace officers" as required to allow carry--
 
The funny thing is, %90 of the LEOs I know don't even carry a gun off duty.

I guess I'll have to stay in California since I can't carry anywhere else. :barf:

I want everyone who is not on probation or parole to be able to carry. But I have become extremely pro-2nd.

The 2nd is a RIGHT that should only be removed after due process.
 
Politics as usual???

This movement was once seen as laying the groundwork for a national carry permit. Attempting to trick politicians into recognizing our constitutional rights is an exercise in futility. In my opinion, our best strategy is to push for a return to constititional control of government. Anything less is confusing motion with progress and is doomed to defeat.
 
Well, my personal opinion is you creep forward inch by inch on offense.

Yes, this creates a scenario where cops can carry and everyone else can't. Actually, this is not unlike the current situation in many states. Yes, it is wrong. However, politics is a game of compromise, and if you're compromising to get something, you're making progress (note: I'm adamantly against compromise on defense. If you're compromsing on giving up stuff, you're still giving up stuff). And what are we getting out of this? Well, we're setting the stage for nothing less than nationwide CCW permits, possibly. If NOTHING else, we are proving that the sky, once again, will not fall when you allow armed citizens to roam around, crossing state lines. Also, can you say 'full faith and credit?' Well...Mr. Blagojevic, you accept police training and commissions from other states...why not concealed carry permits?

If we all sit on our hands and wait until the perfect CCW bill comes down the pike, it won't happen. This is a baby step forward, granting nationwide CCW to, granted, only a few. As such it is wrong, but it is also the camel's nose under the tent flap.

Mike
 
Well, we're setting the stage for nothing less than nationwide CCW permits, possibly.

No, we'd move away from nationwide CCW. The only chance of that ever happening is by making the FOP line up grudgingly behind CCW holders for the sake of off-duty officers. "Goose and gander" needs to apply here. The FOP is already adamantly opposed to CCW in most states where the debate comes up. If they get nationwide CCW for badge holders, they'd never support or endorse any ease on CCW restrictions for us mere peons. The only way to get support from the big national police organizations is to make off-duty LEOs live with the same restrictions faced by regular citizens.
 
labgrade

Florida does not allow out of state LEO's to carry unless in perfomance of official duties. I checked on this earlier and you can find the thread here

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=7813&highlight=florida

I got the paperwork and sent it in for the Florida CCP and it seemed rather absurd as I went through it because all I was doing was a paper shuffle to make it legal. For some reason a lot of states diffentiate between normal CCW permits and LEO permits when it cames to reciprosity. I don't know why. It would seem to me that a LEO would have well documented the training that would be necessary to get one under normal circumstances.

And I agree with you that the best way to solve this problem would be to let every state have shall issue laws or Vermont style laws. It is disheartening to see this sort of thing come from our bosses. It seems like a lot of them have either forgotten what it was like to be a cop, or have turned into such political entities that they will do anything to broker their job into a higher political office.

I posted this when I saw it to let everyone know that we are in this together. There is no way that we can win this fight without everyone looking towards the same goal.
 
Ah, yes, the police keeping track and controlling us. Nice to know our civil rights are subject to the approval of police chiefs. We are just as free as Chief Wiggum allows us serfs to be.

My state recognizes license to carry from all other states and foreign nations. Everyday Indiana is invaded by pistol-totin' Kentuckians, hawglaig-haulin' Michiganders, flannel-wearin' square staters who are armed for the bears, race fans from Finland, engineers from Switzerland, university professors from Israel and elf boot-clad Texicanos. All carrying hidden guns. Ahhh, the children.

Where are the howls of protest from Indiana police chiefs who demand that they control and track all these visitors, our fellow citizens and friends?

Memo to po-po: they have licenses, they are breaking no law. When did the law-abiding become a threat to you? Is it because you can push us around and we will comply, unlike the truly bgs?
 
In defense of Congressman Sensenbrenner: he's quite a conservative, and his position doesn't surprise me. As long as states regulate concealed carry in some fashion, then he would view this as a states' rights issue.

Not that I agree with him.
 
The House bill, HR218, is still in committee. There are some House members who are concerned about the states' rights issues.

The Senate bill, SB253, was approved by substantial majorities in the Judiciary Committee on 6 March and is headed for the floor of the Senate for consideration. President Bush has said that if the House & Senate bill comes to his desk he'll sign it.
 
I guess a pension isn't good enough anymore. Retired cops are just that, retired. Meaning they are no longer cops. I'll support retired cops getting CCW just because of who they are when I can get one.
 
A lot of good points on this thread. Sometimes the political positions of the chiefs of police throw me into severe cognitive dissonance ... or maybe that's THEIR problem.... :rolleyes:
 
The International Association of Chiefs of Police and most of their members disgust me. Police Chiefs are notorious for their consistent and wrongheaded opposition to any concealed carry freedom. As a group, they are anti-self defense, bureaucratic nincompoops. And, they are becoming increasingly and more obviously irrelevant and out of touch with reality.

When terrorists attack again, and honest, decent Americans cannot respond because of such archaic, barbaric laws, then I suggest we all include the International Association of Chiefs of Police in the list of criminals we cite for aiding ... yes, I said AIDING ... terrorism.

Regards from TX
 
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