possible good news on ammo costs

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another okie

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Copper is currently about 10% higher than it was a year ago, which is one reason ammo costs are up.

The Wall Street Journal reports (2-22, C1) that prices are starting to fall, but large producers are continuing to expand, which suggests a long term price fall. They cite a study suggesting a 30% drop in copper from January 2006 to June 2009, and larger drops for nickel and zinc.
 
This Does Not Explain Wolf Price Increases, Right?

Okay, if copper prices are increasing I see the connection for those companies that use copper. But, I see no justification for Wolf ammunition to increase significantly in its prices. Afterall, Wolf is completely steel, with merely a copper "plating" over the steel projectile, both H.P. and FMJ are completely steel jacketed/lead filled projectiles and a steel case. I always believed that the Wolf projectiles were copper. They are not. I guess they can say supply and demand. At first, I heard, "The gas prices...", then I heard, "...because of gas prices, copper and lead..." Not buying it.
 
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Again, it's basic economics. If all the copper based competitors have to raise their prices, then Wolf can raise their accordingly to meet the market.

You can refuse to believe copper prices are involved all you want, but there are hundreds of articles out there describing how the increased demand for copper is affecting various industries in all sectors.
 
Price goes up with fuel

And alot of other things. Just like gas prices I don't think you will ever see ammo prices really low ever again. I hope I'm wrong
 
If you look at the price of copper and brass in the past 3 years, you'll see a lot larger than 10% increase. It won't be going down much anytime soon, unless China's economy skids.
 
It's actually intermediate microeconomics.

Incidentally, my understanding was that really really low ammo prices were due to a glut on the market (saturation). You'll probably never be able to get a MIG21 or a T72M for less than a new Ford Mustang again in the future, but there they are, now.

Military standardized ammo is 'fungible' so it's the easiest to liquidate your stocks of.
 
The question is will the ammo makers drop the price? Remember what they did to us with magazines. During the ban, prices went through the roof. After the ban, they stayed that way! Remember when you could buy those 50 round mags for the 10/22 for $30? That's half the wholesale cost of them today. Inflation isn't the cause, greed is. There are still AR-15 companies selling "pre-ban" models at inflated prices. What ban???


They have trained us to pay those prices, and they have no reason to lower them. Same thing happens everytime there's a gas crisis. They never go down to where they were before the crisis.
 
Greed is good, it's not an insult. If someone calls you greedy because you don't share your stuff with them, it means they're just as greedy, they're just also envious.


For people still selling at unreasonably high prices, if they can find buyers then all the power to them. It's not like there's some plague and they're hoarding the only vaccine.


Gas prices at the pump go down eventually, but it's all about pressures. When you look at gas prices sometimes they are slow to move, and sometimes they drop hourly (price war). But in the big picture prices are not that simple, because of the options market. Essentially prices are influenced not just by people guessing what the future prices will be, but also by people guessing what other people will guess the prices will be. Gas isn't bought at the price you think, people buy options to buy contracts at prices they guess, and if the price goes to that level they can buy the amount the option was for. But they had to pay for that 'option', and the option has a deadline. Every day closer to that deadline the option is worth less and less money, until it lapses and then the option is worthless. So throw in people trading these options, and you have a very confusing market.

Plus gas stations aren't selling you gas at the price they paid for it - they bought their supply and sell it at the price they think they need to to raise enough money to buy the following week's supply - so they're always going to be jumping the gun on price increases. They do not make their living off of selling gas, they make their living off of shop work or potato chips.
 
Ammo prices did not go up in a day. The prices have been on a steady climb for two years. They will not be dropping any time soon.

I hope that they will level off by the end of this year. I think they will remain steady in 2008 and hopefully start to decline after that.
 
Remember what they did to us with magazines. During the ban, prices went through the roof. After the ban, they stayed that way! Remember when you could buy those 50 round mags for the 10/22 for $30? That's half the wholesale cost of them today. Inflation isn't the cause, greed is.

Where are you?

Full cap mags, whether for Glocks, ARs, or 10-22s were pricey before the ban ended. Every gun show these days I see Glock mags for $12-19, AR mags for $10 and 10-22 Butler creek (maybe 30 round?) for $10-15.
 
Remember what they did to us with magazines. During the ban, prices went through the roof. After the ban, they stayed that way!

What? Full-capacity mags for my P99 used to run almost $100 during the ban. Now I can pick them up all day long for $37.

There are still AR-15 companies selling "pre-ban" models at inflated prices. What ban???

There are still places that can only have pre-ban magazines and those are of value to people there.
 
Recently I was reading someone's thoughts that the price of metals was driving the increase in the cost of ammo, so I sat down with a calculator and did some research.

Seems like most people are talking about the cost of Russian 7.62x39. I figured a case of 1000 rounds contains approximately the following quantities of metal:
20 pounds of steel
12 pounds of lead
Minimal amount of copper for coating the bullets; maybe 1/4 pound?
The historical data for the price of these metals from two years ago shows that metal price alone would account for less than $6 increase in that case of ammo.

Now lets talk about brass case/ copper bullet ammo, assuming a case contains 20 pounds of copper instead of steel (brass is 30% zinc which is about half the cost of copper so it would actually be a little less).
Two years ago copper was about $1.50/lb, now it's around $2.80/lb although there was a spike last year that took it over $3.80. That comes to $26, or $30 with the $4 increase from the lead. As I mentioned, it's actually a little less because of the zinc content.

So metal price alone can account for about 3 cents per round increase average, more in larger rounds, less in smaller like .223. Steel ammo, make that about 1/2 cent each. Beyond that it's supply and demand.
 
Steel has doubled in price in ten years, so has lead. Copper's way up, as are the PGMs, silver, and gold. ALL commodities are up, because China and India are modernizing and building cars and houses for 2 billion people.

There are still AR-15 companies selling "pre-ban" models at inflated prices.

I'm paying $120 for receivers, which allowing for inflation, is comparable to the $65 I was paying in 1990. Cheaper, in fact.

I get 30 round Eagle mags for my 10-22 at $8 each. AR mags are $15.

Any short term drop in copper is going to get eaten up again soon. We had this debate on arf.com. I couldn't get one guy to believe that the so-called "precious" metals are not merely pretty and pricey because of some lust for them, they're industrial metals that get consumed.
 
I don't think the price would have gone up as much, but there were lots of people who saw the increase and started buying by the truck load. I think prices will drop some, but not to what they were.
 
From what I've read about the price of Russian ammo this is what seems to be going on: When ammo was cheap those big Russian factories left over from the cold war had a lot of excess production capacity with workers standing around doing nothing. They were hungry for a dollar; hence super cheap ammo on the US market.

Now that those factories are running full steam pumping out death to the highest bidder (a little Military-Industrial complex jargon there), they are no longer hungry. You have to take whatever they have left over at the price they want to charge.

I have a feeling that the price of ammo will be going back down a little if and when things settle down in the middle east.
 
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