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POW/MIA movement bad for the country?

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Navy joe

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Well, that ought to get the hounds after me for sure. :D

Really though, I think it is. Bear in mind that I am military and if ever in a POW situation would like to not be forgotten. However, much like my feelings about how the media covers POWs I think the main job of never forgetting falls to the POW's parent service and to his hometown. The only personal mitigating factor is that I am currently a REMF quite unfortunately, not my goal in life at all. Still, I can quite see the viewpoint of the POW and can probably write most of the Code of Conduct from memory.

-First, the POW/MIA movement I refer to is the one began by Vietnam Vets and is still quite popular with anyone who wants to fly a POW/MIA flag, wear a patch, or display a sticker. Their heart is in the right place.-

The movement drives the current media coverage of POWS and war deaths. In conflicts of the past decade there has always been a heightened sense of and sensitivity to casualties and captures. This goes directly back to our foul experience in Vietnam and increases Americans receptivity when some old general/colonel gets on TV and breaks bad with the "Q" word. Quagmire that is. That word and the fact that our gov't often runs like one giant opinion poll(remember the 6th grade class president popularity contests) has led and could lead to some embarrassing military blunders. Case in point, Somalia. It was not embarrassing that we lost 18 men *. We gave much worse than we got. The embarassment came from the world being shown that some bargain brand dictator could cow the U.S. and make it go home by showing one beat up American and several dead on TV. Now I contend that the POW/MIA movement created this sympathy, but with out of control reality TV and people who lead no lives away from TV I don't think it can be stopped.

Pouring salt in old wounds. That is my opinion of the POW/MIA movement. Re-hashing Vietnam won't help us today. I feel that through reading history we in the military and public can avoid developing CRS syndrome, we don't need an organized political movement to count our dead bodies. In the past 5 years we have killed a bunch of Americans and others in several helicopter crashes, flying around places like Laos looking for pieces of a pilot's jawbone stuck in a hillside for 30 years. What is more valuable, the living or the dead? Time to move on.

Another problem. Deifying POW's. It is all John McCain's fault. Yes he was tough, yes it's good he came back, no he shouldn't have used it so willingly as political capital. Now every POW gets a book and movie deal, except for the one we can't find. (Scott Speicher) They are ordinary folks. Making them heroes makes life a little worse for future POW's in that they can be manipulated by their captors with their coverage back home.

I don't forget our missing soldiers. I should not see their family all over TV when they are still in captivity. If I was captured I would rather be killed than be used as a tool to manipulate foreign policy. I think we must remember that while human life is valuable there are more important things and we must be ever mindful of the high cost but not swayed from action by it. I think the POW/MIA movement was created by veterans who wanted another cause to give them purpose, having ended up disaffected by being forgotten upon returning home from Vietnam. Had we treated them better we could today perhaps still remember our fallen while being able to wage war more effectively.

The positives. The whole world knows we don't forget, I just think a SPECWAR raid or a JDAM says that better than a flag. The current staff has been effective by showing due respect and consideration for our losses but not altering the course of the war because of them.

Ok, I rambled, but in my head it is a convuluted inter-connected subject, now somewhat yours to enjoy. Nowhere did I insult our fighting forces or say we should leave them behind. Nowhere did I insult our veterans of Vietnam or otherwise, so disagree if you wish, that's why I posted it, but please come up with something more than a:

:barf: :barf: :cuss: :rolleyes:

M'kay?

* Nuther threads: Letting Casey Joyce die was an embarassment because no leader insisted he wear all of his body armor. Letting Jamie Smith bleed out all night because we couldn't figure out a medevac or how to get whole blood out there was an embarasment. Overall, though, we kicked major butt. Should we have stayed so long to try to free obviously dead bodies from the wreckage of the first crash? Goes back to over-doing the POW/MIA leave no man behind.
 
One should never forget those that gave everything for their country...

Everyday for the past 25+ years, I have worn a red POW bracelet from the Vietnam war.


SMS PAUL L. FOSTER
USAF
12-29-67
LAOS
 
For me, the POW/MIA flags are a constant reminder of how our government abandoned captives in Vietnam. They pulled us out of the war with the absolute knowledge that we had men still being held by the NVA, and they lied to the public about it for years! Of course, I believe all those lost souls are long dead, but their abandonment is a stain on our Nation's honor that time cannot erase. That's why I believe those flags and bracelets are important. Never again!
 
I don't think the continued emphasis on absolute accountability and on never willfully leaving ANYONE behind both by vets and by currently serving military personnel has anything but positive results in the long run. Neither the young PFC from West Virginia, nor the other POWs would have done even as well as they did, had they not known that we will not rest until ALL military personnel are recovered or accounted for, and those responsible have answered for their actions.
 
I think all the publicity surrounding captured/missing fighters actually encourages enemies to do their damnedest to capture more, and thus increases the liklihood that capturing prisoners for display will be a primary aim of future "assymetric warfare" enemies. One or more American POWs will be sure to be trumpeted by the media, and thus will be a useful device for the bad guys of the future.

Stop it, I say. We'll all remember them and do our best on their behalf without the publicity.

TC
TFL Survivor
 
Since you mention Vietnam...

What is wrong with insisting on an accounting of POW/MIA's?
Richard Millhouse Nixon got elected because he had a secret plan to end the Vietnam war. He and Henry Kissinger gave it away in Paris and swept hundreds of our POW's off the screen.
I don't think we as a nation will ever desert our troops again.
And then there is Scott Speicher.
 
One or more American POWs will be sure to be trumpeted by the media, and thus will be a useful device for the bad guys of the future.
You must remember that while parading our POWs across their TV screens, the BGs are giving those POWs some guarantee about staying alive and being released. Seeing their picture on TV lets the world, including their families, know they are still alive. It also tends to increase the willingness of the population to attack the BGs that are doing this to our people.
 
Ed, from my original post this is what I feel is wrong with pressing for full acounting now:

In the past 5 years we have killed a bunch of Americans and others in several helicopter crashes, flying around places like Laos looking for pieces of a pilot's jawbone stuck in a hillside for 30 years. What is more valuable, the living or the dead? Time to move on.

The point of diminishing returns. Those men are all unfortunately dead. They were betrayed by our dishonest government as well as denied by the dishonest Viet government. We can never heal that wound now. The men should not be forgotten, we just now owe a greater loyalty to the living. I agree, I don't think we as a nation will ever again forget, but then I never needed a flag to remember anyway. I stand by my view that an organized POW/MIA movement is in fact a political body that alters current military plans by keeping the Vietnam bogeyman fresh in everyone's minds. I know of many pilots that wear POW?MIA patches on their flight suits, I bet that will give the enemy a cool little inroad into our mind if captured.

I don't see putting the captives on TV as much insurance, that is assuming that the enemy has the same morals 101 playbook that we use. I see it as using prisoners to further the enemies political motives in contravention of the laws of war. Call it psyops against the American public who to some extent determine when to pull the plug on military endeavors.

From the military side of things, I think we have shown that we will go to great lengths to return our men back to their lines. From various behind enemy lines raids of WWII, to Son Tay, the debacle in the desert, Somalia, Scott O'Grady and various NATO pilot rescues in Bosnia(I fixed some of those planes), and the current raids to free our POWs we have shown that we will risk a lot to get our people back. The armed forces know that. That coupled with our history of treating enemy POWs very well does way more for the treatment of our captives than an organized remembrance movement.
 
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A fitting tribute? Yes, I can never walk around Bobby Lee's front yard and visit the Tomb of the Unknown Soldier without thinking of the POWs and others who never made it home. I'm sure every hometown of thes men has it's own memorial. The Vietnam wall, the memories of their families and friends. I say the organized POW/MIA movement is not a remembrance organization but a political one. That we don't need. Again, I never said I was against tributes, I remember more than most.

How do you think the public is served by a movement that drives Congressional investigations into Korea and Vietnam POWs and scours the old battlefields for body parts and dog tags? Are we really that archaic that we have to collect all the pieces of a long dead MIA in order to consider him home? How can you justify the money spent and the lives lost out looking for these relics?
 
IMO, getting the issue, and keeping it in the press and the politicians face helps to ensure an effort will be made.
Recall that shortly after Viet Nam, the general attitude of "its over and done, fogitaboutit". Had there been a grass roots effort at the end of our involvement, there might have been a chance at recovery of a few live ones, and maybe not.

One thing is certain-if you turn your back on the POW's, you guarantee zero recovery.

There are those of us who have put our time in, draftee or enlistee, all of whom staked everything including their lives, whether they knew the full story or not. Our sons and daughters are doing the same thing now.

I for one am not going to cry about the dollars spent. If you want the government to be more fiscally responsible, their are forests of trees to bark up.
 
Navy joe

I don't question your patriotism or your respect for POW/MIA's.
The reason that the emphasis seems out of place to you is that it has taken this long to get this country over the Vietnam Hot Potato Syndrome. If the appropriate attention had been given to the POW/MIA situation in Korea and Vietnam at the right time, we would not have it as an issue today.
 
A part of the importance of placing a great deal of effort into the POW/MIA issue is for the benefit of the people in the military and their families back home. In the event you are captured, knowing that your government AND nation will do everything possible to ensure your safety and gain your release may be the only positive thing you have to keep you alive.

No matter what your jailers or their propaganda/Psy-ops machine tells you, you can rest assured that someone out there still cares and is looking for you. If you lose all hope, you either roll over and die or collaborate with the enemy.
 
A lot of things go into the military tradition. If you saw "We Were Soldiers", Hal Moore told his troops that he would not leave without them. Army Rangers do not leave anyone behind and I understand that SEALs get the round trip, too. The idea is that the individual can count on the support of his fellow soldiers and his government.
When you think about it, all of the military structure above the company sized unit exists to get the soldier what he needs. General James Gavin said something to the effect that you give your troops everything they need and just about everything they want because someday you might have to stand in front of them and ask them to die. Loyalty runs both ways.
 
"How can you justify the money spent and the lives lost out looking for these relics?"

Call it training. Crashes can happen stateside, too.

John
 
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