Powder for Cartridge Blk Powder Guns

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I've got some handguns on the cusp of the black powder era, and to be safe I'd like to load to blk powder pressures. What's a good clean modern powder?

I thought of Trail Boss, but despite it's low velocities, it seems to have smokeless pressures. The worst of both worlds.

Blackhorn 209 seems good and clean, but hard to ignite. Triple 7 is easy to light up, but dirtier. Same for Pyrodex.

What's the main thought here?

Joe
 
Black Powder is NOT corrosive.
In case that was unclear... BP's not corrosive.

Wash/swab residue out with soapy water.
Patch dry.
Swab w/ standard gun oil.
Walk away.....


avoid the corrosive potential, esp w these old collectibles.
Sign... I'm still shooting an original 1863 (Colt's Contract) Springfield rifled musket.
After 40 years w/ me -- still bright & shiny w/no more blemishes than when we started together :)
 
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I have to side somewha with mr.NEHavey...black powder will be the most gentle when it comes to corrosiveness. Pyrodex being the worse. It seems to me that while black powder fouling if left uncleaned will cause the gun to rust...but not as fast as the subs (aside from BlackMZ). I say shoot a good clean sporting powder such as Swiss or my favorite Old Eynsford. As for a sub...shoot BlackMZ if you can find it as its been discontinued but still available here and there on some shelves and online. Blackmz is as easy to ignite as black powder and cleaner than anything listed above
 
Use a good quality 3F real black powder, like Schuetzen or Swiss or Old Eynsford, and just clean the darn thing promptly, and wash the brass when you get home. It's like brushing your teeth, be faithful and just do it and you will not have to worry about damage to the gun or your brass.

Or your teeth.
 
In old guns, the use of mercury fulminate as the primer caused very quick rust and pitting if not promptly cleaned. BP is not itself a cause of rust, but it is hydroscopic and will absorb water and that will rust.
In modern ammo lead styphnate is the primer and is nowhere near as bad.

For those actual 19th century pistols and rifles that are in use I would stick to real blackpowder due to pressure concerns. Remember, it isn't just the pressure itself, it can be the sharpness of the curve: -- it may achieve the same p.s.i, but in a fraction of the time. That difference can be what blows up a fine old collectible and hurts someone.
 
777 leaves crust-ies
209 is God awfully hard to ignite
Pyrodex is awful.
Black mz is ok
Holy black is best.

As per the corrosion, just keep it well oiled and it'll be fine. The fouling can't absorb moisture and corrode if its already full of oil.

Not one part black powder is corrosive. Its the old style salt and mercury primers and the fouling absorbing moisture that does it. The sulfur in the residue will form sulfuric acid if allowed to contact moisture, and eat the metal slowly if you dont clean it.

The best way to remove the salts, carbon and sulfur is water. Followed by really any type of oil to create a barrier.
Water and a touch of soap to help break down the waxes and greases for lube and lubrication are all you really need, save for some scrubbing for leading occasionally.

Safer generally than cleaning a smokeless rifle. No harsh chemicals just water and soap.
 
bullseye with starting loads. Or HP-38 or other in that range. Red dot is my go to for very light, because of the high bulk to weight. Real black powder is not wimpy, just low pressure. I would feel much better shooitng 2 grains of red dot in a top break than 16gr FFF. To add to the substitute issue, I shoot black powder from a Pietta 1858, and clean it pretty good with water alone, dry and oil. I don't use Balistol, or soap, just water, and don't clean every bit up. Oil is 5w20 conventional. Even though there are spots of powder fouling in a few places, here in 80% humidity year around on the coast, never an indication of rust. I can scrape that clean and see intact bluing. On the other hand, a friend forgot to clean his Pietta after shooting pyrodex for 48 hours, and that gun was sold as scrap, bright orange, fuzzy, and locked shut. Stay away from subs in an irreplaceable.
 
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Well in the past I looked at reloading manuals and saw what the pressure was for the pyrodex loads and for black powder loads. So when loading cartridges for a conversion cylinder for my 1858 Remington, the directions said use only black powder, a black powder substitute, or smokeless ammunition loaded to CAS pressures. So I used Hodgdon Universal at the bottom end with 7800 psi while the Pyrodex loads could run about 2000 psi higher...no worries using like 6.5 grains of Universal and a 225 grain bullet. That's just me. What you do in your situation is entirely up to you. I'd only do this in a conversion cylinder that had those instructions. I'd never think about doing that in the original BP cylinder.

LD
 
I thought of Trail Boss, but despite it's low velocities, it seems to have smokeless pressures. The worst of both worlds.

Howdy

First, I would like to say something about Trail Boss.

Because of the name, many shooters assume it is a Black Powder substitute. It is not.

poeXihvRj.jpg




Trail Boss was developed about 15 or 20 years ago pretty much exclusively for use in Cowboy Action Shooting. Many shooters in CAS download their cartridges a tremendous amount, (a ridiculous amount in my opinion) to reduce recoil and allow faster follow up shots. Down loading large capacity cases, such as 45 Colt, 44-40, 38-40, or even 38 Special, with charges below the recommended minimum charges in the loading manuals can cause unreliable results. The large amount of airspace left in such loads can lead to spotty and inconsistent ignition. With position sensitive powders this can get even worse. So Trail Boss was developed for reduced loads in large capacity cases.

As can be seen in this photo, the grains of Trail Boss look like flattened little donuts. They are not typical flake powders, the grains are thicker than most other flake powders. That may or may not be evident in this photo comparing a small pile of Trail Boss to a small pile of Unique. But the up shot is, a very light charge of Trail Boss will fill up a large capacity case, such as 45 Colt much more than a very light charge of most normal flake powders, such as Unique. One benefit of the case filling aspect of Trail Boss is it is more difficult to accidentally double charge a case than with other powders. No, it is not impossible, depending on the case and the charge, but it is very likely a double charge of Trail Boss will overflow the case and catch the attention of a reloader, while a double charge of something like Bullseye might go unnoticed. Again, that was not the primary reason Trail Boss was developed, it is a side effect. The reason Trail Boss was developed was so light charges could be loaded in large capacity cases without a large amount of airspace inside, for reliable ignition.

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Trail Boss has been on the market a fairly long time now, and shooters other than CAS shooters use it. But because of the name, and because many shooters assume most CAS shooters use Black Powder (they do not) many assume Trail Boss is a Black Powder substitute. As I said before, it is not. As the label says, Trail Boss should never be used as a Black Powder Substitute in muzzle loaders, which includes Cap & Ball revolvers.


OK, back to the main subject.

I NEVER put any modern Smokeless powder into any of my 19th Century revolvers. NEVER! Colt specifically did not warranty the Single Action Army for Smokeless Powder until 1900. By 1900 Colt felt the steels they were using were sufficiently strong enough to withstand the pressures of Smokeless Powder. It is a bit more hazy with Smith and Wesson, there is no line in the sand regarding when their revolvers were safe to shoot with Smokeless Powder. However since S&W was just about 25 miles up the Connecticut River from Colt, I suspect they had access to the same quality steels as Colt did.

No, it is not all about peak pressure. I hear all the time how modern manufacturers are manufacturing some of the old cartridges with reduced pressure because of all the old guns still out there. It is not just about pressure. It is also about the pressure curve. Suppose you want to tow a car and all you have is a rope. If the rope is strong enough you can tow the car by starting very slowly and accelerating gradually. But if you start with a jerk, the rope is likely to break. The difference is in how the pressure was applied. Black Powder has a very long pressure curve. Most Smokeless Powders have a very short pressure curve, more of a spike. Even if the peak pressure of the spike in a Smokeless load is kept the same or below the peak pressure of a similar Black Powder load, the old steel may not be able to take the shock. There is a guy over on the Smith and Wesson forum I argue with all the time about this. He maintains there are Smokeless Powders that can be loaded to duplicate not only the pressure, but the pressure curve of a Black Powder load. He is probably correct. However I do not have pressure sensing equipment to experiment with, and I am not going to use my antique revolvers as guinea pigs.

So.

I load cartridges with real Black Powder all the time for CAS. I usually shoot a pair of 2nd Generation Colts, which would be fine for either Smokeless or Black Powder. But sometimes I bring this almost matched pair of antique Smith and Wesson New Model Number Threes. This photo was taken at the end of a match. They are still very sooty. They get cleaned when I get home.

pmvE1SeGj.jpg




Or I might bring this antique Merwin Hulbert along with one of the Smiths. This photo was taken before the match, the revolvers are still clean. Again, only Black Powder loads, Smokeless never gets near these guns.

pm21XHZzj.jpg




Which begs the question, did somebody shoot these old guns with Smokeless ammo before I got them? Very likely. Still, I am not going to risk it with my antiques, they only see Black Powder ammunition.

As an aside, I will sometimes shoot an antique rifle with light Smokeless loads, but that is because the chamber walls of a rifle are much thicker than the chamber walls of a revolver, and an antique rifle IN GOOD CONDITION can usually take mild Smokeless loads.

Because of local storage requirements, many localities do not allow real Black Powder to be stocked or sold. Real Black Powder is classified by the BATF as an explosive. A low grade explosive, but an explosive none the less. So many communities do not allow it to be sold. Black Powder substitutes, such as Pyrodex or Tripel Seven are classified differently by the BATF and the storage regulations are the same as for Smokeless Powder. So the subs are more easily available to many shooters.

The only Black Powder Substitute I have any experience with is American Pioneer Powder. Also known as APP. Unlike real Black Powder, and many of the other substitutes, APP does not require a Black Powder compatible bullet lube. It can be used with standard smokeless bullets lubed with modern hard wax lubes. I bought some APP a bunch of years ago because I wanted to load some 38S&W (not 38 Special) ammo with Black Powder for one of my antique pocket pistols. I wanted to use some easily available bullets, so I loaded up a couple of boxes with APP. It worked fine, however my experience with it is very limited.

pnw6Tg85j.jpg




When I load with real Black Powder I usually use Schuetzen. Schuetzen uses a better grade of charcoal than Goex, and produces slightly less fouling than Goex. Loading up a batch of 45 Colts here into shiny new brass. The bullets I use are the Big Lube bullet series that have a huge lube groove filled with a specific Black Powder compatible bullet lube.

pl1KhF9Jj.jpg




Cleaning guns after shooting with Black Powder is easier, but more messy, than cleaning after shooting with Smokeless powder.

A subject for another time.

(P.S.) I seldom clean my guns the same day after shooting them with Black Powder. They do not turn into piles of rust over night. Old fashioned corrosive primers and Black Powder fouling were a bad combination. Modern primers are not corrosive, and the fouling produced is far less corrosive than most shooters believe.
 
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I've got some handguns on the cusp of the black powder era, and to be safe I'd like to load to blk powder pressures. What's a good clean modern powder?

I thought of Trail Boss, but despite it's low velocities, it seems to have smokeless pressures. The worst of both worlds.

Blackhorn 209 seems good and clean, but hard to ignite. Triple 7 is easy to light up, but dirtier. Same for Pyrodex.

What's the main thought here?

Joe

I think it is important to know what guns we are talking about. Some from that era will do fine with light loads of smokeless, like Trail Boss, and others should absolutely not be used with smokeless at all.
 
Thank you all for the information. I know BP cleans up easily, but idea of cleaning w water (the horror) or missing a piece of powder, and seeing the gun in a week with rust or pitting would be horrible.
I'm surprised that no one is okay w Triple7 or Blackhorn209 as substitutes.
It's interesting overall.
Joe
 
I have an original .52 cal Smith carbine and based on initial evaluation I don't think it had ever been fired before I owned it. The case hardening inside the breech is perfect. The rifling is as though it was cut this morning. I still ended up shooting it back in the 90's with Goex 3f using Dixie plastic cartridge cases (original cases were foil or rubber). Just neutralize the fouling residue with a suitable agent (i.e., Ballistol), dry and lightly lube afterward.

Sorry I don't have more current pics.

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Thank you all for the information. I know BP cleans up easily, but idea of cleaning w water (the horror) or missing a piece of powder, and seeing the gun in a week with rust or pitting would be horrible.
I'm surprised that no one is okay w Triple7 or Blackhorn209 as substitutes.
It's interesting overall.
Joe


Ballistol is your friend. I only use Goex as it’s the only blackpowder that is easily available where I’m at. Cleaning the gun is really not a big deal when using blackpowder.
 
I've got some handguns on the cusp of the black powder era, and to be safe I'd like to load to blk powder pressures. What's a good clean modern powder?

I thought of Trail Boss, but despite it's low velocities, it seems to have smokeless pressures. The worst of both worlds.

Blackhorn 209 seems good and clean, but hard to ignite. Triple 7 is easy to light up, but dirtier. Same for Pyrodex.

What's the main thought here?

Joe


You should refer to to the powder burn rate chart in your loading manual and consider the condition and the age of your firearms. Most firearms companies were switching over to nitro-proofed guns some time in the 1890s, so if by "cusp" you mean around 1900, IMHO your nitro-proofed revolvers may be safe with mid range loads of smokeless powder with slower burn rates for cast bullets.

Powders like Trail Boss and Red Dot and Bullseye are very high on the list and may only allow milder velocities without reaching the SAAMI pressure limits for these old cartridges that you are using.
An article I read suggested that the correct powders for weaker lever actions need to be slower on the burn rate chart to allow nearly black powder factory velocities with the required lower pressures.

Recommended for .44-40 and .45 Colt toggle action lever guns was 2400, which is pretty slow burning, even though it might seem counter-intuitive to use that ".44 magnum powder". It's listed however for these cartridges at or near standard black powder velocities
Unique, Herco, Universal, and HS-6 are also slower powders recommended in my Lyman 48th Edition Reloading Manual for cartridges like .44-40, .45 Colt, and .44 Special for at or near black powder velocities.

In the end, I think that it depends on how old your guns are and what their condition is. If they are 1870s or 1880s revolvers, you should only use slightly compressed black powder loads, as per proper loading practice. I would avoid Triple 7. It's more potent than BP and needs to be loaded with less volume with card wads, and only *mildly* compressed, or just with no air space. Tricky stuff and a bit scary in cartridges IMHO.
If your revolvers are 1890s or newer and nitro-proofed, and in very good condition, then mid-pressure smokeless loads below SAAMI should be okay. Revolvers of WW1 vintage or later should be good to go with off the shelf standard velocity ammunition.

You are better off loading with smokeless to a lesser velocity than with BP factory loads to be on the safe side, and the slower powders like Unique, Universal, and Herco will produce lower pressures than the faster ones like Bullseye, Red Dot, and Trail Boss for the same velocity.
 
Stumpy,

Wow, what a difference of opinions. I moved recently, and now I can't find my BP Lyman loading manual, but as I recall, weren't the BP reading in LUP (lead units of pressure), while the smokeless powders were measured in CUP (copper units of pressure)? Making comparisons between the two difficult.

I've got a top break S+W (Civil War era) and a Forehand (WW1 era), both in .32 short. But right now I'm loading for a Spanish double barrel .44 XL Shot pistol. The Spanish pistol has no maker marks, and is of unknown age. It could be from the 1950's, or the 1890's. And since it's Spanish...who knows when they switched to smokeless for their civilian arms. Photo of a similar pistol is below.

Joe

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The corrosive thing is way overrated with real BP, I have found Pyrodex way more of a problem. Just clean with hot soapy water or a Ballistol "moose milk" solution, dry the bore real well, lube with Ballistol and you should be good. You can use conventional gun oils/lubes in areas other than the bore or chamber.
 
....conventional gun oils/lubes in areas other than the bore or chamber
...are absolutely fine -- in fact recommended as with any other firearm if you really want to hang onto them..
Simply patch out/dry before shooting -- again like any other firearm.




(I don't know where this "don't use regular CLPs" in Black Powder weapons mantra ever came from)
 
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