power equivalency

[Nicodemus38]

most people will agree that a fully stoked cap and ball revolver is not exactly the idealized manstopper these days. Most "gurus" tell us that a 44 caliber c+b revovler loaded with 30 grains of bp and a 220 grain conical is going to end being a medium powered 38 spcl equivalent.

However, if that that same powder charge is put into a brass casing, and installed into the cylinder of a saa, or vaquero, etc, it suddenly becomes a "true" 45 colt in power.

Why this screwy deviation?

 

[arcticap]

Maybe it's because not many people are shot with them here.
But in places like Europe where they are more commonly used,
people might have a better understanding of their lethal force.

There was a thread titled:

"French bar owner shoots dead armed robber with a BP revolver"

Below is the computer translation of the article which appeared in French in the following thread:

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=422875&highlight=france+shooting

This translation is ideal for "gisting" purposes, providing a basic understanding of the original text.

www.freetranslation.com

A tobacconist of Flaviac (Ardèche) suspected to have killed by bullet Friday afternoon a young man of 19 years, that threatened it with an axe, was placed in police custody, one has learn Saturday of close sources of the investigation.

A tobacconist of Flaviac (Ardèche) suspected to have killed by bullet Friday afternoon a young man of 19 years, that threatened it with an axe, was placed in police custody, one has learn Saturday of close sources of the investigation.

The young man would have attempted to point the bar tobacco with two accomplices. The tobacconist, seizing behind his counter a gun to black powder, would have done a notice shooting in the air, releasing the aggressor fury of which the one began devastating the places with the axe.

The tobacconist, feeling threatened, would have pulled a second time, injuring seriously the young armed man at the level of the thorax.

The braqueurs then took the escape towards Loriol (Drôme), where they live, and went in a medical office in order to let the injured care for, but the doctor was able only to note his death.

The tobacconist as well as the two accomplices of the presumed braqueur were shouted at and placed in police custody Friday in afternoon end.

The floor of Deprive must remove itself from the facts to the profit of the center of instruction of Avignon, that should open a judicial inquiry Sunday, and could charge the tobacconist and the presumed braqueurs.

The investigation for murder and flight to hand army was confided in the policemen, that will have to determine if the shooting was a gesture of legitimate defense, as the asserts the tobacconist

 

[jmaubin]

I've seen this question very often, and even with that I'm must admit I'm still a bit confused(but that's kinda normal for me anyway) on this issue. Dose anyone have a spread sheet or chart that clearly shows the difference black powder and substitute black powers loading guidelines.

I've often heard here, such as Swiss it 10% more powerful than Goex,,,,,,,etc. but dose anyone one have such a spread sheet or a link to one that would show all the major brands and the substitutes as well????

 

[madcratebuilder]

I have just started playing with a used chrony I picked up. I'm seeing 800+/-fps with 30gr/.44rb and Goex, 900+/-fps with Pyrodex and .44rb. I'm seeing a 3-4% variation chamber to chamber. That may be my loading technique, or just the norm for Goex.

A 148gr rb at 900 fps is a stout .38spl load.

 

[Dave Markowitz]

Interesting that this thread came up now.

Last night I downloaded a few articles from the home page of the Yahoo Group "The Percussion Revolver," a couple of which discussed different grades (not granulations) of black powder. Basically, there are three grades of BP commonly used in firearms, listed from most to least powerful:

1. Sporting
2. Rifle
3. Musket

The relative performance can be attributed to better grades of charcoal and longer milling times, to get finer particle sizes of the charcoal, sulfur, and potassium nitrate before they are bound together into individual kernels of powder.

Swiss is an example of Sporting grade. Goex is rifle grade. If you find any left over cans of Elephant they'd probably fit in as Musket grade.

In substitutes, Pyrodex is Rifle grade while Triple 7 is Sporting grade.

In his book Percussion Pistols and Revolvers, Mike Cumpston (THR's mec) reported chronograph data for, among other things, an 1858 Remington, comparing Goex and Swiss. IIRC, the Swiss powder gave at least a couple hundred FPS more MV than Goex. This would seem to bear out the difference in grades of powder.

It also supports the notion that revolver powders available in the 1860 to 1875 time frame was actually better for use in cap and ball sixguns than the powders available to American shooters from the 1960s through about 2000, when Swiss came on the US market. During the heyday of the percussion revolver as a weapon, special revolver powders were marketed which offered improved performance over Rifle and Musket powder. It's only in the last 9 or 10 years where we've been able to once again get that level of performance.

 

[Nicodemus38]

well the question im trying to figure out is how can a powder charge and bullet used in a 8 inch barreled c b revolver be "weaker" then the same powder and bullet load when used in a brass case in a 4.5 inch barreled saa revolver?

 

[rcmodel]

Keith mentioned in his book, "Sixguns" that the .36 Colt Navy loaded with round ball was a man-stopper all out of proportion to it's power on paper.

He further stated that the ball was a better killer then the conical bullet, which often just shot through and produced a relatively small wound, whereas the ball was pre-deformed by ramming and rifling before it hit and did more damage.

BTW: The original .45 Colt load was 40 grains BP / 255 grain bullet.

rc

 

[ClemBert]

A lot of those .45 caliber cap-n-ball revolvers were converted to shoot the .45 Colt cartridge. The .45 Colt originally held 40 grains of powder. The brass back then was a bit different than modern .45 Colt brass. The old brass could hold 40 grains. Anyhow, as I recall, the .45 Colt back then was the most powerful handgun cartridge in general use until the 1930's when the .357 Magnum was introduced.

 

[Hellgate]

Also, the army reduced the powder charge as it was just too much of a load (based on the old Dragoon load of 40grs) so it was dropped down to 30 or 35 grains. I don't know which weight of bullet was used in the new loading.

A lot of the conversions were also made into 44 rimfire cartridge. Can't remember the load on that one either.

 

[Voodoochile]

The .45 S&W Schofield was the cartridge that the Army opted for not only because of the power that was touted out of the Colt loading but also because the Army also contracted Smith & Wesson to produce a number of their revolvers for them & to keep the logistics to a minimum since the Schofield round did work in the Colt revolvers they opted for that round.

The Schofield load consisted of:

230gr. FPRN Lead projectile possibly .454 diameter
30gr. FFFG. Black Powder.
Average 7.5" velocities were approximatly 735 fps.
Striking energy would be 276 ft. lbs.

Interestingly when the Army was in the trail period with John Browning for his .45 caliber autoloading cartridge, they insisted that the projectile be of the 230gr. weight not the 200gr. weight that Browning originally designed.

BTW, some may remember that my lil Pietta NMA is a decent power house with the 220gr. conical & 30gr. FFFG Goex, 718 fps. & 254 ft. lbs. out of a 5.5" barrel, .38 spcl 158gr. LRN loading may have it by speed but my loading has it by punch & size, those C&B revolvers are a little more capable than quite a few give them credit for.

 

[Mike OTDP]

FWIW, Swiss powder runs about 10% more potent than Goex.

 

[Tomahawk674]

Question:

Let's say that .36 and above cap and ball guns were decent "man stoppers", what about the pocket guns?

Having just gone to an antique gun show, there was a slew of pocket revolvers in .31 cal, and .22 and .32 rimfire. These guns seemed to be quite popular; how effective were they? would people just be afraid of getting shot with anything because of infections?

 

[JamesKelly]

This is a great topic on which to get a vigorous discussion in any gun forum.

Most calculations of gun “power” calculate the bullet’s kinetic energy, in foot-pounds. The calculation involves the mass of the bullet times the velocity squared. In other words, a little increase in velocity gives a large increase in bullet energy. The use of Isaac Newton’s physics is correct, how well it relates to stopping power, or killing power, is subject to debate.
Gun Tests ,July 2009 published a formula developed by an elephant hunter, one John “Pondoro” Taylor. He placed more value on large bullets moving at moderate velocities, than on small bullets at very high velocities. His formula is: velocity, in feet per second, times weight, in grains, times bullet diameter in inches, all divided by 7000. This formula gives a factor of 12.6 for a .45ACP and 7.0 for a hot 9mm. Both have the same muzzle energy, just under 370 ft-lb. I believe general experience also favors the .45 over any 9mm pistol.

With respect to percussion revolvers, page 204 of Firearms of the American West, 1802 – 1865, relates an incident with a grizzly bear where several troopers armed with the .36 cal Colt fired a dozen or so shots at close range which had no effect. Then someone rode up with a Colt dragoon and fired two shots, which killed the bear. Conical balls were standard at the time, I believe.

I know what I like.

 

[billnpatti]

If you are assuming the same or very similar bullet (same shape and same weight) is used in both a c&b revolver and in a cartridge gun, just break out the chronograph and measure the velocity of both. Once you know the mass of the bullet and its velocity, you will be able to caculate its kinetic energy. Compare the two and if they are the same, or if they are different, you will have your answer and the proof.

 

[arcticap]

well the question im trying to figure out is how can a powder charge and bullet used in a 8 inch barreled c b revolver be "weaker" then the same powder and bullet load when used in a brass case in a 4.5 inch barreled saa revolver?

Many C&B revolvers are known to have looser tolerances between the chamber diameter and the land to land bore diameter to accomodate shooting with black powder.
The same is possible with the cylinder to barrel gap and pressure loss through the nipples.
Plus percussion caps have weaker ignition than centerfire primers, brass cases can have a tighter bullet fit than percussion cylinders and cases can also be crimped.
All these variables can affect velocity.

 

[batjka]

Voodoochile,

Do you still have those conicals for sale? I would like to try them in my 5.5" Remington.

I believe I've read somewhere that 35 gr of Pyrodex P equal 40 gr of BP. Don"t know if it's true, but that's what I've heard.

 

[Voodoochile]

Yup I still have them, .450 200gr. will most likely fit your chambers if you can shave lead with a .451 ball "if it's a Pietta & many Ubertis" then this will work perfectly.

I also have the 220gr. .456 conicals but they are more for chambers over .452 like my lil cannon & the Ruger OA's.

 

[batjka]

I never measured the chambers of my Pietta, but I barely shave lead with .454. Do you think 230 gr conicals will be oversized? Guess a chamber measurement needs to be done.

As far as using identical loads in a C&B and the .45 LC revolvers, I can hardly believe so much velocity loss through the nipples and the cylinder gap. Does anyone here own both and is willing to do a fiels test?

Also, your velocity figures are for Goex. Do you think Pyrodex P would produce better results?

 

[peacemaker45]

I think that most people are comparing roundball performance to .38s, not that of conicals. Any soft lead slug, weighing XXX grns, and traveling at XXX fps, is going to have the same effect on its target, regardless of what launched it. A hot ACP from a 1911, a .45 Colt, or a conical from a C&B, it doesn't really matter.

A 148 grain round ball, moving at 800 fps from a the typical '60 Army, truly is a .38 special class load, just with a less aerodynamic projectile. Lol

~~~Mat

 

[Voodoochile]

Pyrodex P will have relatively more velocity per volume than Goex FFFG.

 

[rcflint]

I repeat a tale I heard a few years ago, that given the time to load loose powder and ball, Civil War soldiers preferred to load with a round ball, as they thought it to be more effective than the issued paper cartridge with its conical bullet. That could be an effect of more velocity, the ball nose shape, ability to upset on impact, whatever, perhaps it is more effective. It could also be an Urban legend. Gelatin or wet phonebook test shots might show if there is any credence to that story.

 

[Hellgate]

If you look at photos of the issued paper cartridges they had fairly long pointed bullets with meager powder charges. You could pour a lot more powder into the chamber, get more reliable ignition (very important), better accuracy and get a lighter projectile with a much higher velocity. My suspicion is the heavier pointed bullets were slower and punched a nice hole but didn't have the kinetic energy that a faster more blunt tipped ball would deliver.

 

[bejay]

bullet hardness probably make the cartriges much more effective even though speed and weight may be the same the soft lead used in cap and ball for ease of loading can really lack in penetration because they expand so quickly.

 

[Loyalist Dave]

Most "gurus" tell us that a 44 caliber c+b revovler loaded with 30 grains of bp and a 220 grain conical is going to end being a medium powered 38 spcl equivalent

They do? With a round ball it might be the same as a .38 in energy, but the cross section is still .451-.454.

A 220 grain projectile at 800 fps is an equivalent to a .45 acp. V is V, there is no difference if the V is applied by black powder or smokeless. As suggested by billnpatti, a chronograph will tell you what you want to know. Don't worry about tolerances, or gas escaping through the nipple, as those are the "why" pressures might be less than a cartridge BP revolver. Get it chronographed, and you will know.

I recall, the .45 Colt back then was the most powerful handgun cartridge in general use until the 1930's when the .357 Magnum was introduced

Actually the .38-40 was the hottest of the cowboy cartridges.

LD