Quantcast

Practical accuracy and speed

Discussion in 'Strategies, Tactics and Training' started by JudgeHolden10, Dec 10, 2018.

  1. JudgeHolden10

    JudgeHolden10 Member

    Joined:
    May 5, 2013
    Messages:
    668
    Location:
    St. Louis
    I went to my club the other day and had the range to myself. I found that I could shoot 2.5" to 4" groups at 15 yards with my HK P30 when I am pressing the trigger pretty slowly (I wouldn't say that I am stacking the trigger because I am not pausing during the press, but it's not quickly). However, when I started trying to shoot a little faster, I was apparently jerking the LEM trigger because my accuracy was terrible. :(

    I've been thinking about this since I left the range on Saturday. I can see several paths forward, and I'd like to know what THR thinks.

    1.) Dry fire more and get used to the LEM trigger (I have 950 rounds through the P30 at this point, but maybe that is not enough).

    2.) Just keep focused on shooting accurately and don't worry about speed.

    3.) Try to identify why I am shooting so poorly when I am shooting quickly and work on that.

    4.) Figure that I have wasted enough time and effort on the LEM and switch to a DA/SA (I'm very hesitant to do this).

    Any advice is appreciated.
     
    Phaedrus/69 and Jinx0760 like this.
  2. Chuck R.

    Chuck R. Member

    Joined:
    Jan 23, 2005
    Messages:
    2,109
    Location:
    Leavenworth, KS
    For a defensive trigger I prefer the LEM, but it takes getting some used to.

    I treat mine like I would a DA/SA gun. When the decision has been made to shoot, during count 4 of my draw stroke (press out) I'm on the trigger with the intent of having the slack taken up to the break point when fully extended. Subsequent shots are then fired from just beyond the reset point, just like I would a standard DA/SA gun in SA.
     
    Corpral_Agarn and Jinx0760 like this.
  3. Zerodefect

    Zerodefect Member

    Joined:
    Mar 28, 2009
    Messages:
    5,106
    Location:
    Yakutsk, Sakha Republic
    That's about as good as I could get with one. A clunky da\sa isn't going to help much. Some Cz's have nice sights, but are a bit big.

    Consider a Glock 34/35 or 1911. Correct sights and a pistol that points well are priceless. It could be as simple as maybe that style pistol doesn't fit you. I wasted my time on a few as well.

    USPSA style speed is more important than absolute accuracy. It's possible you just need more ammo downrange and more training.
     
    Jinx0760 likes this.
  4. 9mmepiphany

    9mmepiphany Moderator

    Joined:
    Dec 27, 2002
    Messages:
    20,787
    Location:
    northern california
    You aren't shooting as accurately when you are trying to shoot faster because of one, or both, of two reasons
    1. You're trying to make the shot go off when the sights are perfectly aligned on target
    2. You believe that shooting faster means pulling the trigger faster

    Of the DAO triggers on the market, the only system that I think is better than the H&K LEM (assuming that you have the Light LEM) is the SIG DAK

    What happens, when you are already fairly accurate with a gun, when you try to shoot faster is the tendency to press the trigger quickly to the rear as the sights seem perfectly aligned on the target...that is jerking the trigger and will always pull your shots off...even with a 1911. What you need to do is stay in the process of seeing the sights and pressing the trigger straight to the rear at a constant speed. The sights will move a bit, but a well managed trigger press will put your rounds on target.

    You don't shoot faster by pulling the trigger faster, you shoot faster by shortening the time between recognizing that the sight picture is acceptable and releasing the shot. If you are moving the trigger completely from rest to fire a shot, the tendency will always be to jerk the trigger. What you need to do is reset the trigger sooner, in parallel with the muzzle flip, and take up the slack to the release as you wait for the sights to return onto the target

    This isn't the same as "staging" the trigger, it is referred to as "prepping" the trigger. Much like shooting a revolver...the trigger never stops moving
     
    Last edited: Dec 12, 2018
    HB, taliv, Dibbs and 4 others like this.
  5. kidneyboy

    kidneyboy Member

    Joined:
    Jan 13, 2018
    Messages:
    283
    Location:
    SE WI
    Dry fire, dry fire, dry fire
    If you have 950 live rounds through the p30 you should have dry fired 9500 times. The trigger operation becomes second nature with constant repetition.
     
    Jinx0760 and cheygriz like this.
  6. cheygriz

    cheygriz Member

    Joined:
    Dec 28, 2002
    Messages:
    3,311
    Location:
    High up in the Rockies
    First determine how much accuracy you actually need.

    For defensive shooting at 5,7,and 10 yards, you do not need 1/2 inch groups.

    If you can keep a double tap inside of 4 inches at 10 yards, you're good to go.

    Then work on your speed. Dry fire until you're sick of it!!!!
     
    Jinx0760 likes this.
  7. 9mmepiphany

    9mmepiphany Moderator

    Joined:
    Dec 27, 2002
    Messages:
    20,787
    Location:
    northern california
    I'm sure the advice to Dry Fire is well intentioned, but it has to be performed with the proper technique to produce positive results...otherwise, you're ingraining bad habits.

    There is nothing wrong with practicing techniques at shorter ranges. But it is really a form of self rationalization to not verify those techniques at longer distances.

    While you don't need to always practice at 50 yards, you should verify that you are performing your techniques correctly by trying them at at least 25 yards
     
  8. WrongHanded
    • Contributing Member

    WrongHanded Contributing Member

    Joined:
    Jul 6, 2017
    Messages:
    832
    Seems like you already have a lot of good advice.

    I think the question "How accurate, and how fast do I need to be?" is one that has crossed many shooter's minds at one point or another. I don't think there is a measurable answer. In a self defense situation, we'd all like to hit first and hit decisively with enough precision to stop the attack. I suspect some people focus on the accuracy too much, whilst others may focus on the speed too much. If I'm guilty of either, it's the former. But it seems to me that in such situations of high adrenaline, the human body often speeds up, whilst precise motor function is harder to accomplish. So I prefer to practice my shooting fairly slowly (most of the time) and at 15-25 yards. I do so because I want to know I can hit at those ranges, knowing that anything closer is easier. And with that reduced range, comes a larger acceptable margin for error between the ground and trigger.

    But I'm no gunslinger, just a guy trying to be prepared.
     
    Keith G and Jinx0760 like this.
  9. JudgeHolden10

    JudgeHolden10 Member

    Joined:
    May 5, 2013
    Messages:
    668
    Location:
    St. Louis
    Thanks for the replies. I just walked in the door from work, and I will read them tonight.
     
  10. JudgeHolden10

    JudgeHolden10 Member

    Joined:
    May 5, 2013
    Messages:
    668
    Location:
    St. Louis
    I have tried to shoot Glocks, but the ergonomics of them are just not my thing.

    I could use more training, and I am looking into remedying that. In the meantime, I'd like to improve a little on my own (hopefully).

    Oh, I am probably guilty of both, but I know that I am doing No. 2. I'll take your advice this weekend when I return to the range.
     
  11. JudgeHolden10

    JudgeHolden10 Member

    Joined:
    May 5, 2013
    Messages:
    668
    Location:
    St. Louis
    This is very interesting. I'd never paid attention to the reset much.

    Bruce Gray had an article about dry firing with your eyes closed. I tried that last night just to see if I could get a feel for the whole pull and the reset. I was surprised by how much of a difference that made.
     
  12. 9mmepiphany

    9mmepiphany Moderator

    Joined:
    Dec 27, 2002
    Messages:
    20,787
    Location:
    northern california
    Have you taken training with Bruce or just read his articles?

    The articles are a wealth of information, but it is a bit esoteric for some.
    1. Dry Firing with your eyes closed is to train your subconscious to recognize the aligned sights to initiate your trigger press.
    2. If you've read his articles, you should have an understanding of Prepping the trigger. Running an LEM is a bit different, but not worlds apart
    3. Resetting the trigger in parallel with the muzzle flip is a huge step...as most folks learn to manage the trigger pull through shooting a rifle, where the prevailing technique is to pin the trigger to the rear until the sights have returned onto target.

    The technique for resetting the trigger, of a handgun, is a progression, like most techniques, through Pinning the trigger, resetting in Series, resetting in Parallel....
    None of these techniques are bad or wrong; they are just not optimal to fast accurate shooting
     
  13. PzGren

    PzGren Member

    Joined:
    Jun 28, 2003
    Messages:
    801
    Location:
    Texas
    There are two kinds of speed in handgun shooting; the fast first shot and then the quick follow up shots.

    Accurate shooting is a static exercise that requires mostly a good sight picture and trigger pull for good success but is more forgiving when it comes to proper grip and stance. It also requires less hand strength than a quick double tap. The fast first shot is something that needs some training to improve the motor skills, for quick follow up shots it is stance and grip.
     
  14. 9mmepiphany

    9mmepiphany Moderator

    Joined:
    Dec 27, 2002
    Messages:
    20,787
    Location:
    northern california
    Both of those will still be subordinate to the importance of trigger management
     
  15. JudgeHolden10

    JudgeHolden10 Member

    Joined:
    May 5, 2013
    Messages:
    668
    Location:
    St. Louis
    Just the articles at the moment. He has a class in Kentucky in April that's not too far from me. It might be worth a weekend trip.
     
  16. 9mmepiphany

    9mmepiphany Moderator

    Joined:
    Dec 27, 2002
    Messages:
    20,787
    Location:
    northern california
    If he's personally teaching, it will be well worth it.

    I've taught with him in Paducah a number of times. The only downside was that the only Starbucks was in the basement of the local hospital
     
  17. MikeInOr

    MikeInOr Member

    Joined:
    Feb 1, 2016
    Messages:
    563
    Location:
    Oregon
    I don't shoot any gun as quickly and accurately as my 1911's with target triggers. My Beretta 92 INOX has a good trigger when in single action... but it isn't near 1911 target trigger crisp and lite. I carry mostly striker fired pistols which are a far cry from a target trigger.

    Are you trying to gain speed and accuracy for competition or for tactical reasons?

    For me "tactical" is stopping a threat which will most likely be within 10 to 15 yards from me and coming at me. All of my weapons regardless of the trigger type are capable in this situation. The time it takes to deploy my weapon is going to greatly over shadow the extra bit of time it takes me to pull a lousy striker fired trigger vs. one of my 1911 triggers. Knocking down doors and taking out multiple threats shielded by hostages isn't a scenario I give much thought to as it really isn't part of my life style... but I recognize some need to practice and be fast and accurate in such situations.

    For competition I haven't found anything that comes close to a really good single action trigger... aka a 1911 that has had the trigger worked over on it.
     
    Last edited: Dec 14, 2018
  18. PzGren

    PzGren Member

    Joined:
    Jun 28, 2003
    Messages:
    801
    Location:
    Texas
    If any part is done wrong, the results will show it but I maintain the statement that stance and grip are most important for fast follow up shots, especially at close range and when shooting to survice. Fast is subject to different standards, of course.
     
  19. 9mmepiphany

    9mmepiphany Moderator

    Joined:
    Dec 27, 2002
    Messages:
    20,787
    Location:
    northern california
    Grip is important to recoil management...insuring that the sights return to the original POA...but if you have poor trigger management technique, you can still miss your intended target.

    Any serious Action Pistol competitor can prove to you that stance has very little to do with shooting quickly, because they are almost always shooting while off balance. The only time that stance plays a factor is while learning trigger management...to remove that variable.

    I'm not talking about scorching fast, but something on the order of 3-4 shots per second, while maintaining a 4" group at 15 yards
     
    Good Ol' Boy and kidneyboy like this.
  20. Good Ol' Boy

    Good Ol' Boy Member

    Joined:
    Apr 26, 2016
    Messages:
    1,600
    Location:
    Mechanicsville, VA
    Trigger management and grip. Stance really has little to do with it.

    Even a beginner in competitive action shooting, such as myself, can attest to that. When you're leaning around a corner with most of your weight on one leg, body all contorted, the only things that matter are grip and trigger management.
     
  21. JudgeHolden10

    JudgeHolden10 Member

    Joined:
    May 5, 2013
    Messages:
    668
    Location:
    St. Louis
    I'm not sure if it is him personally. I'll have to check.

    I can always bring a cooler full of doubleshot espressos to compensate. :D
     
  22. JudgeHolden10

    JudgeHolden10 Member

    Joined:
    May 5, 2013
    Messages:
    668
    Location:
    St. Louis
    I think I'd settle for that group in three to four seconds total. I have a long way to go.
     
  23. MTNSTRYDER

    MTNSTRYDER Member

    Joined:
    Nov 3, 2015
    Messages:
    132
    Location:
    Vermont
    Any group over 4 inches at any distance does not make me happy
     
  24. Dibbs

    Dibbs Member

    Joined:
    Sep 3, 2018
    Messages:
    388
    Accuracy first. Once your muscle memory starts to kick in, your speed will improve.
     
  25. rpenmanparker

    rpenmanparker Member

    Joined:
    Mar 6, 2018
    Messages:
    1,742
    I fear you are set up for a lot of unhappiness. For one thing the object of defensive shooting as commonly taught is to fire as fast as you can while keeping about a 4 inch group. Speed is more important than groups smaller than that. “About” suggests sometimes a little more, sometimes a little less.
     
  1. This site uses cookies to help personalise content, tailor your experience and to keep you logged in if you register.
    By continuing to use this site, you are consenting to our use of cookies.
    Dismiss Notice