Pressure Concerns, Quickload Favor?

[RPRNY]

30-40 Krag in a Ruger No.3 22" barrel. Not much in the way of published data for hot 30-40 loads. I have been working off 308 Win data and gradually pushing up. The Ruger action is very strong, but working at the top end, I'd like a little more certainty.

Pushed the envelope a bit this weekend and came out with two very good loads but they are nearing the top end of published 308 Win loads and while there were no obvious pressure signs, it would be good to know that they are safe and important to know if they are not:

This load felt very good but there was a bit of vertical stringing.

42 grs IMR 4895, Win LRP, Speer HCSP 200 grs Win brass @ 2450 fps

The 4064 load was very accurate giving three 5 shot groups under 3.5" at 200 yards and one of those at @ 2.5" . However, while case head expansion did not substantially exceed some light cast loads shot at the same time, primers looked a little flat, and recoil was quite sharp, so it would be good to know if this load is really pushing it:

42 grs IMR 4064, Win LRP, Speer HCSP 200 grs Win brass at 2385 fps

If anybody has Quickload to hand and doesn't mind, I'd really like to know what the program offers for pressures for these two loads. They both seem to have promise but no sense refining if they are dangerous.

Thanks very much. I'm traveling to Europe this week so if I do not respond rapidly, it's not for lack of interest or appreciation.

 

[LoonWulf]

Whats your coal?

Also if you can whats the water capacity of your sized and primed case?

 

[LoonWulf]

Heres imr4895 using qloads presets. QL is guessing its producing pressures around 55K, i would probably stop there, more due to not knowing how tough 30-40 brass is, than action strength.

Cartridge : .30-40 Krag
Bullet : .308, 200, Speer SP 2211
Useable Case Capaci: 48.685 grain H2O = 3.161 cm³
Cartridge O.A.L. L6: 3.089 inch = 78.46 mm
Barrel Length : 22.0 inch = 558.8 mm
Powder : IMR 4895

Predicted data by increasing and decreasing the given charge,
incremented in steps of 2.0% of nominal charge.
CAUTION: Figures exceed maximum and minimum recommended loads !

Step Fill. Charge Vel. Energy Pmax Pmuz Prop.Burnt B_Time
% % Grains fps ft.lbs psi psi % ms

-20.0 75 33.60 2001 1778 30327 6938 94.1 1.593
-18.0 77 34.44 2047 1861 32200 7133 95.0 1.551
-16.0 79 35.28 2093 1945 34182 7320 95.8 1.512
-14.0 80 36.12 2138 2030 36278 7500 96.6 1.473
-12.0 82 36.96 2184 2118 38494 7672 97.2 1.432
-10.0 84 37.80 2229 2206 40837 7835 97.9 1.393 ! Near Maximum !
-08.0 86 38.64 2274 2296 43314 7989 98.4 1.355 ! Near Maximum !
-06.0 88 39.48 2318 2387 45934 8133 98.8 1.319 ! Near Maximum !
-04.0 90 40.32 2363 2479 48705 8267 99.2 1.284 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
-02.0 92 41.16 2407 2573 51637 8390 99.5 1.250 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!


+00.0 94 42.00 2451 2667 54740 8503 99.8 1.218 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!


+02.0 95 42.84 2494 2762 58026 8604 99.9 1.186 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+04.0 97 43.68 2537 2859 61507 8693 100.0 1.156 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+06.0 99 44.52 2580 2956 65197 8770 100.0 1.127 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+08.0 101 45.36 2622 3053 69111 8844 100.0 1.099 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+10.0 103 46.20 2664 3152 73266 8916 100.0 1.072 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!

Results caused by ± 10% powder lot-to-lot burning rate variation using nominal charge
Data for burning rate increased by 10% relative to nominal value:
+Ba 94 42.00 2541 2868 64879 8173 100.0 1.136 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
Data for burning rate decreased by 10% relative to nominal value:
-Ba 94 42.00 2319 2388 44828 8510 96.0 1.327 ! Near Maximum !

 

[LoonWulf]

And 4064. Pressures suggested to be 58Kish on this one, which is about where ive noticed wlrp will start to flatten out. They are usually flat, flat, when QL thinks loads are hitting 60/61K

Cartridge : .30-40 Krag
Bullet : .308, 200, Speer SP 2211
Useable Case Capaci: 48.685 grain H2O = 3.161 cm³
Cartridge O.A.L. L6: 3.089 inch = 78.46 mm
Barrel Length : 22.0 inch = 558.8 mm
Powder : IMR 4064

Predicted data by increasing and decreasing the given charge,
incremented in steps of 2.0% of nominal charge.
CAUTION: Figures exceed maximum and minimum recommended loads !

Step Fill. Charge Vel. Energy Pmax Pmuz Prop.Burnt B_Time
% % Grains fps ft.lbs psi psi % ms

-20.0 79 33.60 1995 1767 31916 6585 94.2 1.548
-18.0 81 34.44 2040 1848 33883 6766 95.0 1.511
-16.0 83 35.28 2085 1930 35964 6940 95.8 1.475
-14.0 85 36.12 2129 2014 38166 7107 96.6 1.438
-12.0 87 36.96 2174 2099 40494 7267 97.2 1.398 ! Near Maximum !
-10.0 89 37.80 2218 2185 42958 7419 97.8 1.360 ! Near Maximum !
-08.0 91 38.64 2262 2273 45564 7563 98.3 1.324 ! Near Maximum !
-06.0 93 39.48 2306 2362 48324 7697 98.8 1.288 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
-04.0 95 40.32 2350 2452 51245 7823 99.2 1.255 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
-02.0 97 41.16 2393 2543 54340 7938 99.5 1.222 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!

+00.0 99 42.00 2436 2635 57619 8043 99.7 1.191 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!

+02.0 101 42.84 2479 2728 61097 8138 99.9 1.160 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+04.0 103 43.68 2521 2822 64788 8222 100.0 1.131 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+06.0 105 44.52 2563 2917 68708 8295 100.0 1.103 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+08.0 107 45.36 2605 3013 72874 8361 100.0 1.076 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+10.0 109 46.20 2646 3110 77306 8426 100.0 1.049 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!

Results caused by ± 10% powder lot-to-lot burning rate variation using nominal charge
Data for burning rate increased by 10% relative to nominal value:
+Ba 99 42.00 2520 2820 67444 7743 100.0 1.117 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
Data for burning rate decreased by 10% relative to nominal value:
-Ba 99 42.00 2315 2380 47958 8051 96.1 1.288 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!

 

[ArchAngelCD]

The Hodgdon load data site has extensive load data for the 30-40 Krag with bullets from 100gr to 220gr. They include data for 17 powders including both 4895 powders and 4064.
http://www.hodgdonreloading.com/data/rifle

Looking at the Hodgdon data your charges of 42.0gr w/200gr bullet are over max. That is verified above.
The pressure limits for the 30-40 Krag are 40,000 CUP. (Remember, this cartridge was developed in 1892)
The pressure limits for the .308 Win are 62,000 PSI.
IMO using .308 Win data in the 30-40 Krag is ill advised.

 

[RPRNY]

LoonWulf,

Just getting in a flight and saw this. Thanks very much. Looks like both loads are indeed a little hot. Will back off on both.

ArchAngel,

Appreciate your advice on caution. Note that 30-40 load data and MAP, is based on use of the cartridge in Krag Jorgensen and original Win 1895 rifles. Thus, the very anemic 40psi pressure. 30-40 brass holds at least 2 grs more H2O than 308 and while I can't find it, there has been "Ruger only" load data for the 30-40 in recognition of the action strength.

Thank you however for your advice on caution.

 

[LoonWulf]

Very welcome!
m curious now ill see if i cant find any data regarding heavier loads in the .30-40 and modern guns.
If your cases are holding up ok, with no signs of stress on the 4895 load it would probably call that useable or back off .5-1g or so depending on your comfort level.
As a note Grafs has 30-40 brass in their own headstamp now, never seen that before....

 

[ants]

If you have a 0.0001" micrometer, measure the base of each case above the rim and keep a log of each piece.
Ideally you will get max 0.0005 to 0.0007 inch expansion with each shot.
0.0010 or so is often considered tolerable if that's what you're going for.
Use a dental pick or bent paper clip to feel the interior side of the case wall above the rim.
It gets rough and starts to make 'ridges' when the brass is near the end of its life.
Back when Ken Waters was developing his favorite handloads, these two steps
were instrumental in monitoring brass health while working in territory above bounds.

 

[RPRNY]

If you have a 0.0001" micrometer, measure the base of each case above the rim and keep a log of each piece.
Ideally you will get max 0.0005 to 0.0007 inch expansion with each shot.
0.0010 or so is often considered tolerable if that's what you're going for.
Use a dental pick or bent paper clip to feel the interior side of the case wall above the rim.
It gets rough and starts to make 'ridges' when the brass is near the end of its life.
Back when Ken Waters was developing his favorite handloads, these two steps
were instrumental in monitoring brass health while working in territory above bounds.

Thanks. Unfortunately, I had not measured the brass prior to firing, but I compared case head expansion in these loads with a mild, suitable for the Krag Jorgensen, cast boolit load fired in the same rifle at the same time. With a 0.000 micrometer, I was unable to detect greater expansion in the smokeless loads. However, your advice very sound and I will pursue.