Primer goes off in inertial bullet puller on a loaded cartrige

[Big-Bore]

Primer goes off in inertial bullet puller on a loaded 22-250.
Just had a close call when using a RCBS inertial bullet puller. I have been using one of these for about 30 years with out any problem. Today I was going to pull a few bullets out of loaded 22-250 ammo to change the load for testing.
I had a 50 grain Hornady V-Max on top of 37.5 grains of Varget in Hornady brass with a CCI 200 LR Primer. I smack the RCBS inertial bullet puller several times on the concrete floor and the bullet would not budge, I finally gave it a very hard hit and the primer went the Primer went off. At first I thought I might have hit a loose primer lying on the floor but could not find any burn marks, then I noticed the primer was missing out of the cartridge but the cartridge was intact with the bullet still in it. How that that be possible. I the powder did not ignite. I thought may be the primer bounced out and I smacked it on the floor, so I pulled the bullet and dumped the powder out. Sure enough several grains of powder were singed but the powder did not ignite. The primer simply went off and with out any thing to hold the primer in, it simply pushed it self out with out enough fire going thru the flash hole to set off the powder.

I have been reloading for 47 years and loaded ten of thousands of rounds. I never would have believed this would have been possible.

Has any one else ever had a primer go off by accident?

 

[Grumulkin]

I wouldn't have believed it possible either.

 

[clutch]

Were you using the aluminum three segment shell holder or a reloading shell holder?

 

[Gearhead Jim]

Theoretically, shouldn't happen.

"In theory, theory and practice are the same.
In practice, theory and practice are often different."



Glad that you and your equipment are ok.

 

[Stev32k]

I had a primer detonate when priming .223 brass. It didn't cause any damage and I was not hurt, but I did have to change underwear. The primer was a Federal small rifle. I did some research on-line and found many reports of premature detonations using Federal primers and a few using other brands.

I still don't know the cause. It could have been static electricity or the cup metal was too thin. Federal never responded to several emails asking about the problem and CS was very evasive and defensive when I called.

 

[Stev32k]

I quit using the hammer bullet puller about two years ago and it was the best reloading decision I've made in a long time. Pulling heavy pistol bullets like .45, .40 or even 9mm is not problem, but light weight .22 caliber bullets are a pain.

I bought an RCBS Collett type puller and it is almost fun pulling bullets. It's more expensive but well worth it in my opinion.

 

[gamestalker]

I think in part that bullet weld helped to create the perfect storm. I like to give them a little nudge in the seating die, I bump them just enough to break the weld, then pull them. Doing this helps reduce the amount of inertia needed to pull them.

Of course, this still doesn't explain how the primer managed to pop without igniting the powder though. I've heard of one or two incidents over the years, but if memory serves me correctly, I think those incidents were likely caused by someone using a regular shell holder, instead of the aluminum shell holder provided with the puller.

This hobby comes with a few inherent risks, which is why we should wear eye and ear protection, things can happen even when we're following all the rules of safety.

Glad you didn't get injured.

GS

 

[cfullgraf]

Were you using the aluminum three segment shell holder or a reloading shell holder?

Yes, I've heard of using a shell holder as opposed to the collet designed for the inertia bullet puller can cause detonation of the primer.

I've never seen evidence of it though.

 

[snuffy]

Quote:
Originally Posted by clutch View Post
Were you using the aluminum three segment shell holder or a reloading shell holder?
Yes, I've heard of using a shell holder as opposed to the collet designed for the inertia bullet puller can cause detonation of the primer.

I've never seen evidence of it though.

It should not have happened no matter how the shell was being held. The shell holder also has a hole in the bottom,,,---(of course it does), just like the 3 segment holder the puller came with. The difference is the steel shell holder does not clamp the rim, it can and does move around. BUT does it move enough to allow the primer to be hit during the action of hitting on the floor? So what if it does, the primer is SUPPOSED to be seated flush, so it,(the primer), can't get hit.

Many moons ago, had to be 2000 or so, I heard of the same thing happening. IIRC it was a 300 magnum, it too did not light the powder. After much discussion, it was surmised that the primers were VERY loose in the primer pocket causing the inertia of the primer to hit the base of the anvil hard enough to fire the primer.

The swing of the whole puller caused the primer to back out of the pocket a bit, then the abrupt stop of the shell caused the inertia of the primer to fire it when the anvil stopped against the bottom of the pocket. That reloader even said that was why he was pulling the bullets, to discard the cases because the primers were so loose they were falling out!

 

[rcmodel]

My guess is, the primer cup departed the primer pocket so fast is left the anvil setting there shielding the flash hole from the flame.

However, had the rifle powder ignited, it would not have blown up.
It would have burned slow enough the pressure could vent out the flash hole.

Had it been a handgun round, with fast pistol powder, it would have blown up.

Ammo in a fire:
The .223 blew out the primer, and the powder burned out through the flash hole like a little rocket.

rc

 

[highlander 5]

45+ years of reloading and this is the first time I'very heard of that happening.

 

[dh1633pm]

I think someone up above was watching over you. I would never think that something like that would ever happen without divine intervention or injury.

I can remember once at Maxwell AFB during my military years, when clearing a 38 revolver. The SP dropped a round on the rubber mat. It went off slightly wounding the guy with some stray piece of brass. Never thought that would happen with.

 

[Crashbox]

It's a new one to me also- never thought it would have been possible.

 

[Slamfire]

I can't think of a time I have heard similar.

It is nice that no one is calling you a liar or a fool. I have had that experience when warning shooters about the risk of slamfires in semi automatic mechanisms. I had two out of batteries in Garands (with Federal Match primers) and one in a AR15 with a WSR. Slamfires are very rare, and so, there is a lot of angry skepticism over the idea that there might be sensitive primers, primers sensitive enough that they would go off when a free floating firing pin hit the primer on chambering.

I will add your account to my standard caution about primers being unpredictable. After all, if an inertial impact puller can ignite a primer, than maybe these happened after all:


http://news.yahoo.com/blogs/sideshow...232052308.html

By Eric Pfeiffer, Yahoo! News | The Sideshow – Tue, Jun 12, 2012

A Pennsylvania woman was shot in the leg while shopping at a local department store on Tuesday. But in a nearly unbelievable twist, no gun was involved. Apparently, the woman was carrying the bullet in her purse, when it mysteriously exploded.

"She did not have a gun in her purse or on her," Montoursville Deputy Police Chief Jason Bentley told the Williamsport Sun-Gazette. Bentley said the woman, whose name has not been released to the public, "was not aware" she was carrying two or three bullets inside her purse at the time of the accident.

The 56-year-old woman was taken to a local hospital and was eventually discharged. In fact, the woman initially declined medical treatment, only heading to the Williamsport Regional Medical Center after her son reportedly encouraged her to do so.

"Something must of hit the primer of one of the bullets," Bentley said. "The bullet stayed in the purse, but its casing put a hole in the purse and caused a minor leg wound."

Bullets exploding outside of a gun are a rare occurrence but are not entirely unprecedented. In March, a bullet being used as evidence in a court case exploded in a bag and shot 20 feet across a courtroom. No one was hurt in the incident. It was surmised that the bullet exploded after its tip bounced against another bullet tip in the same evidence bag, according to the Telegram & Gazette.

 

[rcmodel]

Gotta watch out for them rogue 'bullets' in your bag.

I tell everyone I meet at Walmart that.
But do they listen to me?

Noooooo!!!

Rc

 

[IMtheNRA]

Like Snuffy, I too remember reading the same discussion around the turn of the century. It must have taken place on The Firing Line before THR was started. Maybe even Glocktalk... I don't recall how it turned out, but it would be interesting to find that old thread.

 

[Big-Bore]

Hi Snuffy, I think you may be right. This brass has soft heads and loose primer fit. I originally loaded them at home in AL 300 ft above sea level. Never had a pressure issue. I took the ammo to WY and shot Prairie Dogs at 5000 ft elevation and blow 5 primers with excess head expansion that damaged the bolt. After some research I found that to be a common problem, so I reseated the bullets deeper to reduce pressure and the next year I did not have any blow but the accuracy suffered. That's why I wanted to pull these down and try a lower pressure load with the bullet seated closer to the lans. But all my Hornady brass now have loose primer pockets, several had to be discarded. I do have a collet pullers that I normally use but these bullets were seated to deep for the collet to get a good grip. That round that went off, I checked the pocket and could reseat a new primer half way in with my finger. So you could be right, the primer may have moved and bounced down causing it to fire. That was a good call. thanks.

 

[Big-Bore]

Hi SlamFire1, You are right about slam fires. The mil spec primers are different then commercial primers in several way, one of which is a design to reduce slam fires.

I am surprises at the positive support in this thread. I would have found this hard to believe if it had not happened to me. I saved the powder out of the round and put it in a plastic bag so I could prove my claim by showing the scorched powder gains. Even when I saw the scorched gains , to be sure, i poured out some fresh powder next to it for comparison. And that's when it really hit home.

I've been injured by explosions before and still have particle embedded in me after 40 years. A static spark did me in years ago. so I tend to be very cautious. I have had cook off rounds in machine guns in the military and I have had hang fires that went bang nearly a second after the click and I have had a rifle discharge when the safety was flipped to the fire posion. I have crushed hundred of primers and never had one go off. So I still at at a loss trying to comprehend this going off like that. I guess I'll have to shoot those 800 rounds as is.

 

[Big-Bore]

Hello cfullgraf, It was a 3 jaw aluminum collet engaging the rim. It was the standard RCBS inertial puller. I have used this pullers more times then I can count in over 20 year. I also have the RCBS collet puller that I like better but the bullets were seated yo deep to get a good grip on it. But I just could not get the 50 grain bullet to move and I really smacked the heck out of it bending the handle . I guess when you start bending the handle it's time to back off.

 

[Stev32k]

The only logical explanation I can think of is powder hitting the anvil hard enough to set off the primer. Since Varget is a stick powder maybe one or two pieces hit the primer anvil with enough force to make it go off.

 

[fguffey]

The shell holder will not hit the primer except on the smallest diameter cases. If there was a problem with shell holders it is possible to place an ‘O’ ring around the case to center. This is not the first time a primer has ignited when pulling bullets.

It was impossible for anyone to consider the primer could have seated while being pounded on the floor. It is possible for powder to trickle through the flash hole and fill the space between the primer and primer pocket.

The primer is not covered; above the primer is an exit hole. R. Lee claims a primer can launch itself from the back of a case at 500+ fps. There was a shooter/writer that carried his ammo to the range in zip lock bags. One day he dropped a bad, he almost bleed to death before they got the bleeding stopped.

F. Guffey

 

[fguffey]

Has any one else ever had a primer go off by accident?

I have not had one go off by accident, I did spend close to two hours trying to set one off. I used Federal primers in two Lee auto primers. I gave up then went to the RCBS auto primer, finally I managed to mangle a primer. After mangling it I managed to set it off.

I did not double stack primers by double clutching, that would be cheating. That would make it the reloaders fault.

F. Guffey

 

[fguffey]

Like Snuffy, I too remember reading the same discussion around the turn of the century. It must have taken place on The Firing Line before THR was started. Maybe even Glocktalk... I don't recall how it turned out, but it would be interesting to find that old thread.

It was a stick on the Firing Line.

F. Guffey

 

[Blue68f100]

I've heard of this before but with a std shell holder. I'm wondering if the retaining nut for the collet loosened allowed the cartridge to move. I say his for I have had the retaining nut loosen on me and have a tendency to check every few wacks.

You said you bent the handle, which indicates your technique may not be right. You want these to rebound so a loose grip is required. Trying to drive a nail with them does not work the best in removing the bullet. It's the quick change of direction that makes things work.

 

[GaryL]

Wow. Who would have guessed?

I recall a guy on another board posting pics and saying he was at the range and a shell casing bounced off the ceiling and hit one of the rounds in the middle of an open box on the bench, setting it off. It was one of those plastic ammo containers with the butts of 50 rounds all exposed. He said it launched the shell case pretty hard, but it didn't hit him. None of the other rounds went off, but several were worthless and the plastic box messed up around the one the that went off.