Private handgun sales in California

[edrice]

I got into a discussion the other day about private handgun transfers in the state of California and it reminded me that almost thirty years ago I sold a handgun to a co-worker privately without any third party involvement. I wasn't up to speed on firearms laws at the time, so I was wondering if anyone knows when California law first required private sales to go through DROS.

Thanks to anyone who knows.

Ed

 

[billwiese]

Private, unpapered sales of legal firearms between California residents in CA were legal until 1 Jan 91. On & after 1 Jan 1991, all firearms sales - both long guns and handguns - had to go thru the DROS process, use of a CA FFL, and the 10 day wait.

If one of the parties was from outside CA, Federal law regarding interstate sales applies, and the services of a CA FFL would still have been required.

[The CA waiting period used to be 15 days, but changed to 10 days in early 90s - in fact, that may even also have kicked in in 1991 as well, IIRC.]


Bill Wiese
San Jose CA

 

[Jim March]

I was going to say "early 90s" for the FFL switchover so I strongly suspect Bill is right.

 

[billwiese]

Yeah, this was easy for me to remember since 12/31/1990 was the last day to send in your Roberti-Roos AW registrations.

I remember driving like mad to the SF airport post office after work with my thumbprint card, $20 check, etc. and sending it certified mail/return receipt.


Bill Wiese
San Jose CA

 

[edrice]

Thanks, Bill!

Yes, that date you gave triggered (so to speak) my memory and I remember now. Seems there were a number of other gun control issues that came into being at that time, hence my confusion.

The pistol in question I sold in the mid-80s, but I remember going through the 15-day wait to get it. It was a S&W model 659. I had also bought a Browning Hi-Power (Belgian made) back then, but I moved across the country and ended up selling it (big mistake) in another state before moving back to California.

I wonder if these pistols were registered by California back that far. I ran aross the "Automated Firearms System Record Check" form at the AG website and am going to send it in just to see what firearms they have me down for.

Thanks again!

Ed

 

[cyclist]

Could be kind of an interesting conundrum (sp?) if you bought a pistol while a CA resident, then moved out of state, then sold the pistol, then moved back to the state of CA, then someone else moved into the state with the pistol and tried to register it as a new resident is supposed to apparently do. State clerk looking over the records might go "hmmm, shows this is still supposed to be here so how'd it get out of state". I wonder if you'll need any proof of the legal out of state sale or if they'll just take your word for it that you sold it while you were a resident in another state. Kind of one of those there catch-22 loophole things maybe.

I know when I was a resident in CA that there were a couple of firearms I bought or sold prior to the 1991 legislation. I also know that CA wasn't supposed to keep records but they did stating it was for back tracking a firearm if it ever showed up later in a crime situation. I got threatened by CA over a vehicle registration where they threatened to extradite me if I didn't pay up on a vehicle I'd already titled/registered in a new state prior to but close to the time the CA registration expired. The friggin fee was less than a lawyer's fee so I just paid the wrongfull charge and vowed never to live there again. Just telling the story as an example of how you might have to prove your innocense due to the gap in your residency. Would be interesting to see what they say I own or owned, but I'm not about to open myself up to that potential can of worms with the way that state operates.

Good luck.

 

[billwiese]

The pistol in question I sold in the mid-80s, but I remember going through the 15-day wait to get it. It was a S&W model 659. I had also bought a Browning Hi-Power (Belgian made) back then, but I moved across the country and ended up selling it (big mistake) in another state before moving back to California.

I wonder if these pistols were registered by California back that far. I ran aross the "Automated Firearms System Record Check" form at the AG website and am going to send it in just to see what firearms they have me down for.

If you bought a handgun at a CA dealer with 15 day wait from the 1980s on, it's most likely "in the system". I'm thinking that computer records of handgun sales in CA may go back to ~1978ish or however far back they had the budget to backfill and perform data entry. I'm thinking pistol sales records from 50s/60s probably aren't computerized or are only skimpily entered.

And whether that data is correctly entered or not, who knows. DOJ firearms database administration is not that great - the AW & 50BMG registration database has lotsa problems - aside from data entry errors, they tried to use NCIC makes & model abbriviations and sometimes lost things in translation, esp w/regards to importer vs manufacturer - even when the registrant took significant pains to give supplemental information ("Made in Russia" is a brand???? Yup.)

Sure, you can ping DOJ to find out what it thinks you own. May be an interesting data point for us here. It's also some neutral occupational therapy for the DOJ BoF

... interesting conundrum (sp?) if you bought a pistol while a CA resident, then moved out of state, then sold the pistol, then moved back to the state of CA, then someone else moved into the state with the pistol and tried to register it as a new resident is supposed to apparently do. State clerk looking over the records might go "hmm, shows this is still supposed to be here so how'd it get out of state". I wonder if you'll need any proof of the legal out of state sale or if they'll just take your word for it that you sold it while you were a resident in another state. Kind of one of those there catch-22 loophole things maybe.

I am sure this is not a unique thing at all. CA is huge, there's lotsa gun owners, there's lotsa folks moving back in registering handguns. The fact the gun is being filed on Personal Handgun Importer form alone is a good indicator things are legit.

Also, there's no real legal issue - they'd have to prove you illegally (unpapered) transferred it to the CA dude instead of the sales cycle you outlined above. Burden of proof is on them. And it's pretty easy for most folks to show they moved out of state (DL/ID records).

So no real worries here.

I know when I was a resident in CA that there were a couple of firearms I bought or sold prior to the 1991 legislation. I also know that CA wasn't supposed to keep records but they did stating it was for back tracking a firearm if it ever showed up later in a crime situation.

What you did was perfectly legal. Private unpapered gun xfers (for lawful purposes between non-felons, of course, and as long as both parties were CA residents) were completely legal until 1/1/1991.

DOJ leadership admits it thinks it only knows about less than 1/3rd of handgun ownership in CA.

CA does, and has, kept track of handgun sales info for ages (DROS system/forms - even before massive computerization). The ban is on access to Federal 4473 info. CA does not have much info on legal unpapered private handgun sales inside CA before 1 Jan 1991.

I got threatened by CA over a vehicle registration where they threatened to extradite me if I didn't pay up on a vehicle I'd already titled/registered in a new state prior to but close to the time the CA registration expired.

That's just a fundraising threat. And how the hell can they extradite for a civil (fee) matter? There's no proof you drove on the roads w/expired reg.
That would be laughed out of your current state if they tried.

Would be interesting to see what they say I own or owned, but I'm not about to open myself up to that potential can of worms with the way that state operates.

There's nothing to be afraid of asking for your records (as user 'edrice' will be doing).


Bill Wiese
San Jose CA

 

[edrice]

Originally Posted by billwiese
Sure, you can ping DOJ to find out what it thinks you own. May be an interesting data point for us here. It's also some neutral occupational therapy for the DOJ

While I was on the CA website, I also printed out a "Notice of No Longer in Possession" just in case I need to get my name deleted from anything I no longer have. It'll be interesting to see how that works out.

Quote:
Originally Posted by cyclist
... interesting conundrum (sp?) if you bought a pistol while a CA resident, then moved out of state, then sold the pistol, then moved back to the state of CA, then someone else moved into the state with the pistol and tried to register it as a new resident is supposed to apparently do. State clerk looking over the records might go "hmm, shows this is still supposed to be here so how'd it get out of state". I wonder if you'll need any proof of the legal out of state sale or if they'll just take your word for it that you sold it while you were a resident in another state. Kind of one of those there catch-22 loophole things maybe.

Originally Posted by billwiese
I am sure this is not a unique thing at all. CA is huge, there's lotsa gun owners, there's lotsa folks moving back in registering handguns. The fact the gun is being filed on Personal Handgun Importer form alone is a good indicator things are legit.

Also, there's no real legal issue - they'd have to prove you illegally (unpapered) transferred it to the CA dude instead of the sales cycle you outlined above. Burden of proof is on them. And it's pretty easy for most folks to show they moved out of state (DL/ID records).

So no real worries here.

While I would never sell a firearm to anyone whom I would deem a potential threat to the lives of others, there's no telling where that firearm could eventually wind up - stolen and used in a crime, etc. So regardless of where I lived, when I sold a firearm that didn't go through a DROS system, I've always written up a bill of sale, complete with both driver's license numbers (including state of issue) and both our signatures, so that if a trace ever did come my way, I can just whip out the paperwork showing when and to whom I transferred it years ago.

The 659 I sold in California before I left, but the Hi-Power was sold in Georgia and I still have the paperwork for that and every other firearm I've ever sold.

Ed

 

[sniper5]

Check with the CA AG website on the exemptions for C&R weapons. Private individuals can do FTF for C&R. And California uses the BATF list for designation of C&R status.

 

[Jim Diver]

Sniper: The FFL rules still apply for C&R handguns. They have to go through a FFL. C&R rifles (AFAIK) do not unless the law has changed in the last 4 years.

 

[sniper5]

Correct. I should have specified long guns.

 

[buttrap]

I wonder what they would do there in kali if they cought a person mail ordering BBs. I know its a state violation but how bad would they land on you?

 

[edrice]

I wonder what they would do there in kali if they cought a person mail ordering BBs. I know its a state violation but how bad would they land on you?

I often mail order ammo that's hard to find locally. There are no restrictions on mail order in California that are different from other states that I'm aware of.

Ed

 

[Noxx]

I buy all of my 7.62x39 vial mail order here in CA.

 

[EOD Guy]

Sniper: The FFL rules still apply for C&R handguns. They have to go through a FFL. C&R rifles (AFAIK) do not unless the law has changed in the last 4 years.

C&R rifles and shotgun have to be over 50 years old for private party transfer. Those less than 50 years old have to be transferred through a dealer.

 

[sniper5]

By and large C&R firearms ARE over 50 years old. However, I believe California honors the BATFE C&R list for it's exemption.

 

[EOD Guy]

By and large C&R firearms ARE over 50 years old. However, I believe California honors the BATFE C&R list for it's exemption.

While most C&R firearms are over 50 years old, there are thousands that are less that 50 years old or that span the 50 year mark.

California recognizes the Federal C&R rules but still requires that C&R firearms, other than rifles and shotguns over 50 years old, be transferred through a dealer.

California C&R FFL holders can purchase any C&R firearms while out of state and bring them back to California, except for "assault weapons." Handguns must be registered with the DOJ within 5 days of entry into the state.

 

[edrice]

Update - I received back my "Automated Firearms System Record Check" results from the CA DOJ.

Eyeopener - not only were the two pistols on there that I previously mentioned, but there were four others that I had completely forgotten about, or was thinking that I had purchased them in other states.

So this evening I'm filling out 6 "Notice of No Longer in Possession" forms and making copies of my bills-of-sale (which fortunately I still have).

I'll again update with the results of this activity.

Ed

 

[CountGlockula]

So this evening I'm filling out 6 "Notice of No Longer in Possession" forms and making copies of my bills-of-sale (which fortunately I still have).

ALWAYS hold onto your gun's paperwork. Great job in keeping records.

For every handgun I've purchase, I've always requested a copy of the DROS.

 

[edrice]

An interesting sidenote is how my memory failed me over the years.

As I was going through the DOJ's records of what I owned, I ran across a Colt Double Eagle, and I thought to myself, "What in the heck is that?"

I went through my records and I sure enough there was a Double Eagle that I had bought and sold several months later. I must not have been much impressed with it and they only made it a few years and discontinued it. This took place after I had bought and sold a Smith & Wesson 645. The early double-action .45s apparently didn't have much going for them, because I own two 1911A1s today.

I had to look up the Double Eagle on the web and when I saw pictures, it slowly started coming back to me. If you'd asked me if I ever had one, I'd have said "no" - not to mention I'd ask what it was.

Ed

 

[edrice]

Update number 2 -

Last week I received a reply back from the California DOJ that listed the former six weapons as no longer in my possession.

All-in-all, it was pretty painless.

Ed

 

[Harley Quinn]

I wonder what they would do there in kali if they cought a person mail ordering BBs. I know its a state violation but how bad would they land on you?

You can not go through the post office as in US Gov. with your ammo, most use UPS or Federal express, or another shipper. How do you think it gets around? Lots of shippers out there that are not for letters and junkmail.

HQ