Proper loading help

Status
Not open for further replies.

Bezoar

member
Joined
Apr 9, 2006
Messages
1,616
How do we justify using powder loads in bp revolvers that completely exceed the recommended "safe" limits published by the lawyers?

The lawyers dont differentiate between steel and brass frames in the manuals, its just by caliber. SO what is the correct aproach to follow with proper load development?

do i simple fill the cylinder to within an 1/8" of the arbor end of the cylinder and push in a round ball. Or should i just say, "no one else has a {model name here} that blew up using 25-30 grains of powder and a 180 gr RB/200 gr conical
 
I think you are missing the point here.

If you just want a big bang and lots of smoke then use a shotgun :rolleyes:
The main reason for shooting would seem to me to be accuracy and to that end, the lighter the load = the less recoil = the more chance of a tight group = satisfaction.

Consistency takes evaluation, application and practice not quantity noise and smoke :)
 
We justify it by testing. You develop a load by trying it and measuring the results; the metrics include muzzle velocity, muzzle energy, downrange velocity, downrange energy, deviation from point of aim, deviation in point of impact AND the ability of the gun to tolerate the pressure. Some people only measure a few of those parameters; others don't do any, although the last one is kind of hard to ignore. Relying on the results of others isn't so irresponsible if the body of experience is large enough.
 
>How do we justify using powder loads in BP revolvers that completely exceed the recommended "safe" limits published by the lawyers?<

Well, lawyers are not firearms experts and the loads were probably developed by the firearms proof people on the advice of lawyers.

Still, I correspond with the USA rep for one of the large reproduction firearms companies. He has written that "for his brand of firearms," one cannot stuff enough black powder in the cylinder to explode the gun. That, I think, was written with modern steels and modern production methods in mind--and the fact that his BP guns carry a nitro proof.

The Lyman Black Powder book has loads for modern repros, both minimum and maximum and for both FFFg and FFFFg powder. For years we were told that FFFFg was only for flintlock pans. Get a copy, it will surprise you.

If you feel adventurous, then work the load up until you cannot get any more BP and a ball in, taking into account the necessity for a little lube here and there. Maybe this is better off with new, modern, high-quality guns--not the very cheap ones.
 
mykeal / Bad Flynch.....

Still doesn't alter the fact that the best and most consistent results come from lighter loads :cool:

Once you have 'enjoyed' shooting maximum loads and experienced the noise,kick and smoke it is time to start getting results - and they won't come with the biggest loads. :cuss: :cuss: :banghead:
 
I agree with Duncan on that. I've always enjoyed stuffing max loads in my chambers for a cylinder or two just to see how they shoot. In the end, I always come down in charge to the most accurate load though. It might seem like a pipsqueak in comparison, but being able to hit the target more reliably is seductive.
 
Plink and Duncan -

I absolutely agree that the most accurate load will (almost) never be the maximum possible load (almost because I never say never...). I've developed loads for each of my 16 black powder guns and in every case the most accurate load is significantly less than the maximum possible. I very rarely shoot max load, and absolutely not when I'm trying for accuracy.

I did not intend my post to suggest that was not the case.
 
One thing to remember is that most corporate lawyers have a very large stick crammed up their derrieres, and their first thought is towards covering the corporate butt from any conceivable possibility of litigation, especially where consumer combustibles are concerned. The thought of having John Q Public stuffing an explosive compound into their client's product, no matter how much it's been tested or proofed, sends them into spasms. So if a gun is proofed to use 30 grains safely, the lawyers are going to say "no more than 15-20 grains" in order to stay within their conceived limit of liability. Their thought is, "hey, you want to use more, than it's your business; if anything happens, it's no skin off our nose... but don't say we didn't warn you!"

The charges for these guns were developed by the original manufacturers to be safe and practical in light of the properties of black powder, and the metallurgical and manufacturing capabilities at the time of the initial designs (most during the early-to-mid 1800s). The steel being used for the manufacture of these guns today is so far superior to that available to the original makers that it ain't even funny. And todays CNC and CAM systems are beyond anything Sam Colt and Eliphalet Remington could have conceived of even in their wildest flights of fantasy. Take a good look at your Italian made repro. All of those proof stamps aren't added just to booger up the looks of the gun (although they accomplish that effect admirably). They mean the guns have been tested to be safe for use by the public for the purpose for which they were designed (making smoke, noise and punishing threatening sheets of paper and rampaging plastic milk jugs). And that means using the charges the guns were designed for.

You want to stuff 45 grains in your Remmie? If you can still cram a ball in on top of it, then, by all means, go for it. You want to put 60 grains in your Walker? It didn't work too well in the originals (though there is some evidence that the cylinders burst due to the conical bullets being loaded backwards by the troops; and certainly the rush job by Whitney's work force didn't help), but today's modern guns can handle it and not even break into a sweat. Charges for brass-framed guns should be kept light due to the nature of the material, but steel-framed guns can handle full charges with no problems.

When you think about lawyers, just remember; the purpose of their jobs is to be anal-retentive. I ought to know, 'cause I married one. But that's another story. :uhoh:
 
I think that the low factory recommended loads for single shot guns especially are because it's so common for people to accidently load their guns with double powder charges. Powder is dropped in and forgotten about, so then another powder charge is dropped in. If the maximum load is 100 grains, that's potentially 200 grains in the barrel. If the maximum load is only stated as 50 grains, then double that is only 100 grains in the barrel. Then when the company does get sued, the plaintiffs will say that the manufacturer was well aware of how common it is to drop double powder charges into the barrel, so their max. load is too high, even though it's not. If a gun did blow up due to a double charge, who would knowingly admit to over charging it?
This way, someone would have to drop 3-4 times the maximum to even come close to blowing the barrel. I don't think it's because lawyers actually want people to shoot pipsqueak loads, it's because they want to protect the company's existence, investors, worker's livlihoods as well as the consumer.
 
Last edited:
I got three different "max load-min load" from my pair of brass framed remmie .44s.... one booklet from Traditions, one from Pietta, one from Cabelas...

I loaded 24 grains, a wonder wad, and a .454 round ball and got 6 holes in the paper at around 25 paces, all to the left and shooting two handed standing straight up. (there was a good breeze strong from right to left that day)

my son in law and I trooped up to the paper, said, "yep, he's dead" and went home. paper was around 2 ft by 2 ft.

much greater accuracy is available in my opinion but we spent most of our time firing his M-14 socom and we went home happy. nothing jammed, nothing blew up, and no caps went down in the works. other than that, the previous advice about accuracy, consistency, etc i totally agree with.
thats my two cents. have fun!
 
Last edited:
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top