Proposed Illinois Gun Shop Legislation

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TomJ

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Attached is a link to the latest proposed legislation making it difficult, if not impossible for LGS' in Illinois to operate. As is their MO, what the anti's can't get in through the front door they try to get in the back door. They may not be able to ban guns, but they can try to drive LGS' out of business here. If you have time, please call your representatives to request them to oppose this.

http://campaign.r20.constantcontact...04315&ca=9795d215-706f-4489-8477-216080bebccf
 
I have a bit of a problem calling representatives over a bill which hasn't even been written yet.

HB1016 is just a shell bill, there's nothing there.

This just spanks of the typical ISRA fear mongering.

When there's something of substance to do, and something concrete to go off of, great.

There's nothing right now, though, other than Richard Pearson screaming "THE SKY IS FALLING" yet again.
 
Trent,

You may be right, however the link I pasted below is from Senator Harmon's website. I understand that many efforts by the anti's fail and we can't over react to everything they try, but I also understand people being uncomfortable with anything Gabby Giffords is involved in and wanting to stop it before it picks up a head of steam.

Tom

http://donharmon.org/news/60-showca...ds-call-for-greater-gun-dealer-accountability
 
Most armchair activists have a limited amount of time and energy. If they're worn out chasing ghosts, you won't get them behind something when it really matters.

This is a slick move by Pearson. Nothing is going on in IL that matters, since they can't pass a budget and pay anything / anyone. To justify his own existence Pearson's gotta have people do SOMETHING.

So .. chase a ghost. If nothing happens and a bill never materializes (the likely outcome given the budget / pension crisis), he can claim victory - "look, all those phone calls made them give up."

The wiser move is to wait and see what they have, let the bill get submitted, then get the troops moving when it goes to committee. Do the usual witness slip stuff, show up in Springfield, etc, etc.

Acting on something that "might" happen is counterproductive. You can only cry wolf so many times before people just quit giving a crap.
 
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I've already had rants on the ISRA previously, and my personal feelings about Pearson are well known. There's no need to rehash it again.

My point here, is if you're going to go do battle, don't do it half-cocked with much less than all of the information. If you are going to fight a proposed bill, at least wait until the bill is filed so you can pick it apart right and proper, instead of speculating on what MIGHT be in there.

For all we know the anti's are just getting people distracted on this, to rush something more insidious through elsewhere. Stay focused.
 
It's the same game every year in Illinois---this year with Giffords as an exploitable VIP guest star for the antis. They try for any ground they can get. No, it won't happen this year. Pearson is running the same plays he always does and I'm fine with that. Anyone who has been in the ISRA for a few years knows when to turn the squelch up and when to start calling.
 
I don't know enough about Mr. Pearson to comment about him, but his relevance to this issue ended with confirmation from Representative Harmon's web site that he is proposing legislation impacting LGS'. Does anyone think it's going to benefit them? How soon this legislation will be voted on is anyone's guess, but again per his website he's pushing for it to be voted on soon. I'm not sure what the objection to this is about, since we have a Democratic representative working with Gabby Giffords telling us they're trying to get this legislation voted on. If you want to call your representatives, call them. If not, that's fine too.
 
There we go. NOW we have something to rally the troops about.

Let's dissect this piece of trash now. :)

(3) sell, lease, or transfer firearms in quantity, in
series, or in any other manner indicative of trade.

So, a guy setting up a table at a gun show to sell of a part of his collection - say, 20 guns - is now qualifying to this, as he's "doing so in a manner indicative of trade?"

"Licensee" means a dealer or a dealership licensed under
15 this Act. Anyone who holds himself or herself out as a licensee
16 or who is accused of unlicensed business is considered a
17 licensee for purposes of enforcement, investigation, hearings,
18 and the Illinois Administrative Procedure Act.

Whoa, so if you are ACCUSED of having an unlicensed business you're now considered a licensee for purposes of the act? That's bull.

If you are accused of operating an unlicensed business you are assumed to need a license, and the department finds you "guilty" of a class A misdemeanor (up to a year in jail) *and* a $10,000 fine (in addition to the $2,500 penalty assessed for the misdemeanor).

Nasty.

Ooh now we get to the meat. There's a limit in number of firearms an individual can sell each year before being considered "in the trade of", and that number is EIGHT.

Section 15. Exemptions. The provisions of this Act related
20 to the licensure of dealers and dealerships do not apply to a
21 person or other entity that engages in the following
22 activities:
23 (1) transfers of less than 8 firearms within each calendar
24 year;


The board who does the "approvals" will consist of..

1 Section 25. The Gun Dealer Licensing Board.
2 (a) The Gun Dealer Licensing Board shall consist of 5
3 members to be appointed by the Secretary. Each member shall
4 have a reasonable knowledge of the federal and State laws
5 regarding firearms. Each member shall either be a resident of
6 this State or shall certify that he or she will become a
7 resident of this State before taking office. The Board shall
8 consist of:
9 (1) one member with at least 5 years of service as a
10 county sheriff or chief of police of a municipal police
11 department within this State;
12 (2) one representative of the Department State Police
13 with at least 5 years investigative experience or duties
14 related to criminal justice;
15 (3) one member with at least 5 years of experience as a
16 federally licensed firearms dealer in good standing within
17 this State;
18 (4) one member who is a representative of an advocacy
19 group for public safety; and

20 (5) one member shall be a lawyer licensed to practice
21 law in this State. The membership shall reasonably reflect
22 the different geographic areas in this State.

I'm assuming on #4 they are talking about one of their Handgun Control Inc or Million Mad Mom's and not the National Rifle association, right?


1 Section 40. Continuing education. The Department may adopt
2 rules of continuing education for persons licensed under this
3 Act. The Department shall consider the recommendations of the
4 Board in establishing guidelines for the continuing education
5 requirements.

What is that vague garbage? Dealers will need to go through indoctrination camps?

oooooh there'll be a written test mandated.

6 Section 45. Examination of applicants; forfeiture of fee.
7 (a) Applicants for licensure as a dealer shall be examined
8 as provided by this Section if they are qualified to be
9 examined under this Act. All applicants taking the examination
10 shall be evaluated using the same standards as others who are
11 examined for the respective license.
12 (b) Examinations for licensure shall be held at such time
13 and place as the Department may determine, but shall be held at
14 least twice a year.
15 (c) Examinations shall test the amount of knowledge and
16 skill needed to perform the duties set forth in this Act and
17 comply with other provisions of federal and State law
18 applicable to the sale and transfer of firearms. The Department
19 may contract with a testing service for the preparation and
20 conduct of the examination.
21 (d) If an applicant neglects, fails, or refuses to take an
22 examination within one year after filing an application, the
23 fee shall be forfeited. However, an applicant may, after the
24 one-year period, make a new application for examination,
1 accompanied by the required fee. If an applicant fails to pass
2 the examination within 3 years after filing an application, the
3 application shall be denied. An applicant may make a new
4 application after the 3-year period.

In the future only those who have worked at a gun dealership will be able to apply for gun dealership license;

Section 50. Qualifications for licensure as a dealer.
10 (a) A person is qualified for licensure as a dealer if he
11 or she meets all of the following requirements:

.. snip

3 (4) has a minimum of one year of experience, with a
4 minimum of 100 hours per year, during the 5 years
5 immediately preceding the application: (i) as a dealership
6 agent under this Act; or (ii) as a federal firearms dealer
7 licensed under Section 923 of the federal Gun Control Act
8 of 1968 (18 U.S.C. 923) or an employee of the business who
9 had access to firearms;
10 (5) has passed an examination authorized by the
11 Department; and
12 (6) has paid the fees required by this Act.
13 (b) The Department may request a personal interview of an
14 applicant before the Board to further evaluate his or her
15 qualifications for a license.

Oh wait so not only do you have to have experience, but you have to pass a written examination, and go grovel before the board?

Ha.. HAHAH! Oh my.

20 (c) By January 1, 2018, a licensee shall implement
21 appropriate security measures, as provided by rule, to deter
22 and prevent the theft of firearms and unauthorized entrance
23 into areas containing firearms. The rules may provide for:
...

24 (1) the manner of securing firearms when the location
1 is both open and closed for business;
2 (2) alarm systems for licensees; and
3 (3) other reasonable requirements to deter illegal
4 sales and reduce the risk of burglaries and other crimes or
5 accidents at licensees' business establishments.
6 (d) The licensed business location shall be equipped with a
7 video surveillance system sufficient to monitor the critical
8 areas of the business premises, including, but not limited to,
9 all places where firearms are stored, handled, sold,
10 transferred, or carried. The video surveillance system shall
11 operate without interruption, whenever the licensee is open for
12 business. Whenever the licensee is not open for business, the
13 system shall be triggered by a motion detector and begin
14 recording immediately upon detection of any motion within the
15 monitored area. In addition, every sale or transfer of a
16 firearm, including sales and transfers that take place at
17 locations other than the business premises, shall be recorded
18 by the video surveillance system in a way that the facial
19 features of the purchaser or transferee are clearly visible.

20 The stored images shall be maintained on the business premises
21 of the licensee for a period of not less than one year from the
22 date of recordation and shall only be available for inspection
23 on the premises by the licensee, the licensee's dealership
24 agents, the Department and federal, State, and local law
25 enforcement upon request, and neither the stored images nor
26 copies, records, or reproductions of the stored images shall
1 leave the custody of the licensee except under a court order,
2 subpoena, or search warrant. The licensee shall post a sign in
3 a conspicuous place at each entrance to the premises that
4 states in block letters not less than one inch in height:
5 THESE PREMISES ARE UNDER VIDEO SURVEILLANCE. YOUR
6 IMAGE MAY BE RECORDED.

Holy crap, that's a LOT of data storage. one year video from multiple cameras with a mandated state requirement to keep it, means that storage has to be highly available. For disaster recovery purposes (you are in violation of the law if the footage is lost) you'll need to have off-site copies kept - that will also take copious amounts of internet bandwidth and storage.

The bolded section is the end of gun shows as we know it.

7 (e) The area where the licensee stores firearms that are
8 inventory of the licensee shall only be accessed by dealership
9 agents, Department of Financial and Professional Regulation
10 staff performing inspections, law enforcement or other
11 emergency personnel, and contractors working on jobs unrelated
12 to firearms, such as installing or maintaining security devices
13 or performing electrical wiring.

Wait, now, is this the end of putting firearms on display?

18 (g) A licensee shall not allow any person to handle
19 firearms while intoxicated.

Better stock up on breathalizers. How the hell are you supposed to know if someone has been drinking, otherwise?

There's a long section on "dealer agents" that I have to read through again.

I did notice they love throwing around that "$10,000 per offense" thing for ANY little thing.

I'll have to finish reading the second half of that thing later. Good grief that's long. (31 pages?)

ETA: I have went up and bold-red marked up the relevant part that should get your average Joe to give a crap about this. That key piece that should rally folks, is this:

If you sell more than 8 guns in a year you are assumed "to be in the business of", guilty of a class A misdemeanor, subject to 1 year in jail and subject to a total of $12,500 in fines and penalties, plus court costs.
 
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I think its an attempt to shut down stores like Chuck's, and prevent anyone from ever opening a gun shop anywhere in Cook County ever again. It'll also drive up the cost of FFL transfers. My local FFL would either have to stop doing transfers or start taking photos of all of his customers. He works out of his house...

So now I'll call my representative and ask her to vote against HB1016.
 
Count, I know quite a few guys who have sold more than 8 guns in a year, who would be considered a 'dealer' under this bill. They're not doing it for profit, most at a loss, just either old guys getting bored of guns and selling them to buy new guns they aren't bored of, or friends getting laid off and selling chunks of their collections to be able to eat, etc. (Lots of unemployment around here.)
 
Ya, I have no doubt its a direct strike against gun owners, whom they hold responsible for the gang violence. When some inner-city criminal shoots someone to death, the anti-gun politicians feel that society let that young man down - that he was the victim of the cycle of poverty, the victim of social and economic injustice and an inadequate educational system. They misplace blame for the anti-social behavior on abstract concepts like "a city awash in guns". They think that if it weren't for selfish gun owners, that young man wouldn't have gotten a gun in the first place. They get angry at gun owners and pro-Second Amendment politicians who have impeded progress toward the perfect society. In the minds of the anti gun politicians - pro-Second Amendment politicians and their gun owning constituency perpetuate the societal problems by blocking gun control legislation. To them, the criminals are not the enemy - WE ARE THE ENEMY !
 
Of course they don't blame the lifestyle of violence urban youth grow up in.

The corruption in Chicago is appalling. They're perfectly willing to blame guns for their woes while diverting and misplacing millions in urban revitalization funding.
 
Chicago disgusts me. I was born in that city, but I escaped as soon as I was able.

The trouble is, I didn't move far enough. Chicago is a soon to fail experiment, and they won't change a single thing until it's too late.

Any city where dead people vote has real problems. And that's been going on since the 19th century by some accounts.

Everything bad in IL comes from in or near Chicago. All of these anti-gun pols come from Chicago or near it.

I sincerely wish Chicago was its own entity, so they could leave the rest of us the hell alone already.
 
NRA's article on the proposed legislation:

http://cdn.nraila.org/articles/2016...slation-that-would-only-close-gun-dealerships

HB 1016 goes far beyond federal law in its mandatory regulations and red tape imposed at the state level that it would almost assuredly force the closure of most firearm dealers, and prevent prospective owners from opening new ones. This legislation seeks to create so many department divisions, anti-gun 5-member licensing boards, and licensing fees that dealers would be forced to close through oversight by anti-gun appointees or being priced out of business.
 
Interesting, they completely missed the "selling 8 guns in a year makes you a presumed gun dealer and subject to up to a year in jail + $12,500 in fines" language.

Or the fact that this will essentially shut down gun shows, as how are you supposed to keep video of every transaction at every table at a gun show, on site, as stipulated by law, for a year? Most of those shows are held at convention halls, etc.

You *know* in this state, there is no doubt that language is going to be used against normal gun owners who just 'don't know any better'...
 
Its 42 pages of poorly written legalese, so maybe the NRA hasn't fully digested it. As you know, these shell bills are surprise attacks. Instead of winding their way through committees they suddenly just appear on the floor for a hearing. Maybe this is just the NRA's first pass at identifying this bill as a bad bill, I know Todd has said that he finds more objectionable stuff in this bill every time he re-reads it.

If it will get more Illinois gun owners energized, hopefully the NRA will put out more info on why its bad for everybody.

Maybe if people realize there will never be another gun show in Illinois if this law passes, they'll at least learn who their state representative and state senators are and call them.

Asking people to learn how to fill out witness slips on legislation may be too much :uhoh:

I've told this story before, I remember going to the gun show at the DuPage County Fairgrounds and meeting a former co-worker. He was planning on buying an AR or building an AR. I was wearing my IGOLD stuff and we started talking politics. First of all - he didn't know what IGOLD was, that's what started the conversation. He didn't know anything about any of the anti-gun bills that had been introduced in the ILGA, he didn't know who his state rep or state senator was. It was just mind boggling. Here is a guy getting ready to plunk down 800-900 bucks for a rifle and he's completely unaware that there are people 30 mles away from him planning to outlaw it.

I was in Gander Mountain in Geneva where the NRA had set up a table to enroll new members. I was just talking with the folks who were at the table, but it blew my mind how many people walked in there, purchased ammo or accessories, walked by the table and wanted no part of becoming an NRA member. I'm sure they'll be the first to b**** and moan about anti-gun legislation, but they've gone through their whole life so far not doing a damn thing about it.

My understanding from reading the amendment is that any employee who handles firearms falls under the category of "Dealership Agent".

I'll admit I've made fun of the kid behind the counter at Gander Mountain for not knowing much or saying stupid things, but that kid probably isn't getting paid too much either. Under this law, anyone working a gun counter in any Illinois store would have to undergo special state training and take a test and be licensed before working a gun counter. There's no way Gander Mountain is going to pay those fees for 3 or 4 people at their gun counter. There will be 1 person working the whole gun counter or they'll just close their gun counters in all their stores.
 
Well we're seeing the danger of what I tried to indicate before, Count. The NRA's release closely mirrored what the ISRA release stated before anyone had ever seen the bill.

By the ISRA going off half-cocked a couple weeks early, the REALLY nasty stuff was missed. The things that *should* get masses of people motivated are not even mentioned. It becomes a "not my problem", problem, as people are far less inclined to get off their rears and make phone calls for someone else's behalf. This is especially true when it's a commercial operation (gun shop). Sure, gun shop owners are going to be motivated as all get out but how far out of their way will the average Joe go out of their daily routine to throw in?

Now, if Pearson had WAITED for the bill to be submitted, and thoroughly reviewed the thing, they would have seen the slimy underbelly of this for what it truly is. An end to gun shows. Severe restrictions on private sales and commerce. The potential for people to go to jail for a year for selling their rightfully owned personal possessions. etc.. etc..

Instead now we have everyone, including the NRA, mirroring Pearson's original (and largely incomplete) guesswork and rhetoric, and missing the more ominous, further reaching, aspects of what this agenda truly means for each of us.

I know people would jump in front of a bus to defend Pearson, but this is yet another long list of things over an equally long history that should have never happened the way it did. Maybe it's not as bad as when he derailed the largest iGold convention in history, to go on a personal infowarz-style half hour rant about armored personnel carriers, department of homeland security ammunition purchases, and black helicopters, but it's pretty dang high up the list.

This is a prime example and lesson in how being an activist, without knowing and reviewing ALL of the information, can cause more damage than it helps.

Anyway I'll get off my soapbox now.

I completely agree about the Gander Mountain scenario, BTW.

But I'm far more concerned about the long-term impacts this has on all private commerce, at this point, than I am about gun stores having another layer of red tape to follow.

There is absolutely NO way this bill should pass constitutional muster but they completely bypassed the judiciary review and committee processes by doing it as a floor amendment.

We need a damn constitutional amendment in this state to be rid of floor amendments. Those are so frigging dangerous. It allows bills to be passed in to law without ANY review on whether it's constitutional, has budgetary impacts, affects prisons, etc, etc, etc.

In a state where the budget crisis is already a catastrophe, I can't even fathom HOW they could consider passing any legislation which has TOTALLY bypassed all of the budgetary statements from agencies - and given the track record on unconstitutional laws being overthrown, how they could even think about passing something affecting personal trade in such a fashion.

My right to sell my firearms should not be limited to 8, or any other damn arbitrary number, in any given time period. What if I find myself unemployed and have to rapidly sell of my collection to put food on the table? The guns will go WAY before my kids go hungry or we lose the house!

If a person has a nice collection of 100 guns and wants to sell them off it would take them twelve and a half YEARS to do it legally, unless that person took a huge hit on price and sold them to a dealer.

That's just not right, man.
 
Been an ISRA member for years and NRA member for years. I have less issues with the ISRA than the NRA but they are both the best bet we have. Rather have them be ahead of the problem than behind them. Been at the IGOLD march's on Springfield several times. Without them we would have no concealed carry in Illinois. Its not the best concealed carry law but its more than we had before. Chicago keeps blaming the guns but refuses to deal with the gang and drug problems in Chicago. Tired of people who blast the ISRA and NRA and refuse to spend a dime to protect their rights. I also belong to GOA,
 
The ISRA sent out revised alert yesterday

Witness Slips and Phone Calls Needed!
OPPOSE:
HB1016 HFA 1 Gun Dealer Licensing Act

HB1016 stipulates that:

Dealers must obtain permission from the local sheriff to operate their business

Family members may not participate in the family business if under age 21

Applicants for a license must have 5 years licensee experience and pass a written exam

Employees must be licensed in the same way doctors and lawyers are licensed, including continuing education on subjects still to be defined

Any person selling more than 8 firearms can be retroactively considered a dealer

A license shall not be issued to locations within 500 feet of a school, preschool, or day-care facility, eliminating all possibility of gun stores in Chicago and other cities.

Every sale is to be video recorded, available for inspection by State and Federal authorities, which is tantamount to firearm registration!
 
Personal feelings regarding the ISRA aside, the thinly veiled attempt of this bill is to make it difficult if not impossible for LGS' to stay in business and restrict the private sale of guns. Regardless of which one of these issues is important to you, can I suggest that we call our state reps Monday morning to let them know where we stand? Being politicians, their primary concern is most likely getting re-elected. If they only hear from the anti's, it's more likely they'll give in to them.
 
For Illinois members...

On Monday, please call your State Representative and politely ask them to oppose HB 1016 Amendment 1.

If you do not know who your state representative is, the Illinois State Board of Elections has an interactive search page here:

http://www.elections.state.il.us/Dis...ByAddress.aspx

You could also use CapWiz: http://www.capwiz.com/nra/state/main/?state=IL&view=myofficials

If you know who your representative is, but don't have their contact info, you can also find their contact info here:
www.ilga.gov/house/.
 
Personal feelings regarding the ISRA aside, the thinly veiled attempt of this bill is to make it difficult if not impossible for LGS' to stay in business and restrict the private sale of guns. Regardless of which one of these issues is important to you, can I suggest that we call our state reps Monday morning to let them know where we stand? Being politicians, their primary concern is most likely getting re-elected. If they only hear from the anti's, it's more likely they'll give in to them.

Oh absolutely. My only beef was with the premature action. Now that we know what it is, heck yeah.. Time to get everyone moving.

The committee hearing looks to be May 17. That gives us one day (Monday) to call reps and then on to filing witness slips.
 
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