Pump shotguns aren't so slow

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Kevinq6

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Sometimes I think people don't know how quickly you can operate a pump shotgun.



Source: http://blog.suarezinternational.com/2017/09/speed-comparison-pump-vs-semi.html

No haters please I'm not saying you can't pull the trigger faster with a carbine or semi-auto, but personally I'm not too concerned with this being how fast I could shoot.

For fun here is a video of Jim Miculek shooting 23 rounds in 3.73 seconds with a semi-auto:

 
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Wow those are nice videos,the first one wasn't that much different in time to me,i'd say the semi auto was a little faster shot. The second video blew me away.! Thanks for sharing Kevinq6.
 
Why was the guy in the first video shooting both so slow? It's a rhetorical question, I know he was shooting at 5 different targets, but that video is irrelevant to the thread title statement. What would be relevant would be firing five at the same target as fast as aimed fire would allow. The time taken to transit the targets here negates any comparison of relative speed of the two types of actions. I had to watch Jerry's video a couple times to ascertain that he did indeed fire 23 rounds. All hits. Of course the muzzle brake, probably borrowed from an Abrhams tank, helped. :p Still impressive.
 
I am much more concerned with hitting what I am shooting at than lead downrange. In 58 years of shooting I shot a Wingmaster better than anything else, and that includes O/U, SxS, Semi auto and other pumps. I am old and feeble now so a gas operated 1100 semi auto is most likely with me.
 
Why was the guy in the first video shooting both so slow? It's a rhetorical question, I know he was shooting at 5 different targets, but that video is irrelevant to the thread title statement. What would be relevant would be firing five at the same target as fast as aimed fire would allow. The time taken to transit the targets here negates any comparison of relative speed of the two types of actions. I had to watch Jerry's video a couple times to ascertain that he did indeed fire 23 rounds. All hits. Of course the muzzle brake, probably borrowed from an Abrhams tank, helped. :p Still impressive.


I feel like you are arguing my point but not on purpose. The title was intended to mean people criticize the pump shotgun as having a slower fire rate, but if you actually had to use it in self defense, that would be pretty negligible. Also, using buckshot at the ranges inside a house I doubt you would need to shoot them more than once.
 
For self defensive purposes I like the ability to effortlessly double tap that a good semi allows you.

Yes you CAN double tap with a pump, but only a select number of shooters can really pull it off.

Maybe someone like Greg Cruz can do it, but not me, at least not on any kind of consistant basis.

 
I carried (and used) a shotgun on the street for many years, until I finally retired out of police work. Any time we had a weapons call (or I anticipated the need for firearms) it was in my hands - a standard riot gun, four shot tube, bead sight - an utterly reliable Wingmaster (this was before Remington ever came out with a "Police" model..). In my later years I also had an old cloth bandolier (meant originally for the M-16..) with quite a few extra rounds (30 to 40) in case I had to move into a situation involving military grade weaponry on the other side of things... The extra rounds were only meant to allow my guys to clear the area if they were out-gunned (a real possibility back in the cocaine cowboy era - and the years that followed down here in paradise..). To put it mildly, most police forces were never meant to handle situations where they were badly out-gunned before the party started... Thank heavens I never needed those extra rounds...

I know that for most, their defensive (or assaulting) shotgun training and use will never be anywhere else but a range somewhere - maybe in competition - but mostly range time. Any time I hear about how quick a gun can be operated (and on this thread there's even someone talking about "double taps" as though they were using a handgun....) I just shake my head since a shotgun with standard 00 buck rounds is the closest thing to Thor's hammer that I know of - within its capabilities... For me a shotgun is a close quarters weapon -with the old poppers we used (a mix of Remington and Mossberg standard riot guns) with Improved Cylinder barrels was for ranges of less than 15 meters, generally. A single center of mass hit with what we carried was a genuine fight ender - no need for a second shot. What was needed was the ability to smoothly move from target to target (if more than one opponent was involved), then take the time to line it up before making that final shoot/don't shoot decision. Yeah speed had something to do with it - but I always counselled my guys to line them up first before taking the shot... and the only addition to that was to "aim just a bit low" since when you're scared to death and your heart feels like it's in your throat... most will shoot high if they don't compensate a bit...

Unlike most encounters by citizens in a self defense situation - cops on the street will find themselves pointing weapons at offenders on a regular basis, time after time - when no shot is fired (or would it be correct to fire...) -so I had to be very sure - and know that I was always perfectly safe - even while pointing a gun at another individual.... That meant I never, ever took the safely off of my loaded and cocked shotgun until that last moment, period. It served me well in all those years with never an accidental discharge until that one day when I did fire a single shot - and ended a young man's life... All these years later (almost forty now) I still wish I was somewhere else that day.

For those wanting to become competent defensive 'gunners - learn your weapon, make sure you pattern it with the ammo you're using so you know exactly what the spread of your pattern is at a given range (those old poppers we used had a pattern that dispersed at exactly one inch per meter from the muzzle - at seven meters you had a seven inch spread...), then spend most of your money on ammo and practice. Speed and maneuver is life itself on the street when weapons are involved.

By the way... I can't remember how many times I pointed a handgun at someone on the street (and almost half that time was pretty much ignored...). I do clearly remember that any time I pointed a shotgun at someone in close quarters I was almost never ignored with only one or two exceptions (and I killed one of them...).
 
There are people in my hunting club that have been using a pump shotgun since they were kids and they can empty them pretty fast . I can't do it because I grew up shooting a semi auto and do not shoot a pump very much . I almost feel like I am shooting a single shot , with a faster reload , I am so slow .
 
I carried (and used) a shotgun on the street for many years, until I finally retired out of police work. Any time we had a weapons call (or I anticipated the need for firearms) it was in my hands - a standard riot gun, four shot tube, bead sight - an utterly reliable Wingmaster (this was before Remington ever came out with a "Police" model..). In my later years I also had an old cloth bandolier (meant originally for the M-16..) with quite a few extra rounds (30 to 40) in case I had to move into a situation involving military grade weaponry on the other side of things... The extra rounds were only meant to allow my guys to clear the area if they were out-gunned (a real possibility back in the cocaine cowboy era - and the years that followed down here in paradise..). To put it mildly, most police forces were never meant to handle situations where they were badly out-gunned before the party started... Thank heavens I never needed those extra rounds...

I know that for most, their defensive (or assaulting) shotgun training and use will never be anywhere else but a range somewhere - maybe in competition - but mostly range time. Any time I hear about how quick a gun can be operated (and on this thread there's even someone talking about "double taps" as though they were using a handgun....) I just shake my head since a shotgun with standard 00 buck rounds is the closest thing to Thor's hammer that I know of - within its capabilities... For me a shotgun is a close quarters weapon -with the old poppers we used (a mix of Remington and Mossberg standard riot guns) with Improved Cylinder barrels was for ranges of less than 15 meters, generally. A single center of mass hit with what we carried was a genuine fight ender - no need for a second shot. What was needed was the ability to smoothly move from target to target (if more than one opponent was involved), then take the time to line it up before making that final shoot/don't shoot decision. Yeah speed had something to do with it - but I always counselled my guys to line them up first before taking the shot... and the only addition to that was to "aim just a bit low" since when you're scared to death and your heart feels like it's in your throat... most will shoot high if they don't compensate a bit...

Unlike most encounters by citizens in a self defense situation - cops on the street will find themselves pointing weapons at offenders on a regular basis, time after time - when no shot is fired (or would it be correct to fire...) -so I had to be very sure - and know that I was always perfectly safe - even while pointing a gun at another individual.... That meant I never, ever took the safely off of my loaded and cocked shotgun until that last moment, period. It served me well in all those years with never an accidental discharge until that one day when I did fire a single shot - and ended a young man's life... All these years later (almost forty now) I still wish I was somewhere else that day.

For those wanting to become competent defensive 'gunners - learn your weapon, make sure you pattern it with the ammo you're using so you know exactly what the spread of your pattern is at a given range (those old poppers we used had a pattern that dispersed at exactly one inch per meter from the muzzle - at seven meters you had a seven inch spread...), then spend most of your money on ammo and practice. Speed and maneuver is life itself on the street when weapons are involved.

By the way... I can't remember how many times I pointed a handgun at someone on the street (and almost half that time was pretty much ignored...). I do clearly remember that any time I pointed a shotgun at someone in close quarters I was almost never ignored with only one or two exceptions (and I killed one of them...).

Thank you for sharing sir, it great to have people with your experience here.
 
For whatever reason I've always shot better with a semi or stack barrel than a pump, which is why I don't own a pump. If the situation were reversed I'd own pumps.
 
Any time I hear about how quick a gun can be operated (and on this thread there's even someone talking about "double taps" as though they were using a handgun....) I just shake my head since a shotgun with standard 00 buck rounds is the closest thing to Thor's hammer that I know of - within its capabilities...


I respect your insight.

However I've heard of more than a few instances where multiple hits were required with a shotgun.

Granted these mostly involved military combat and fending off predatory animals, but whatever the case, the ability to instantly light off a controlled followup, can only be a good thing.
 
I had a lot time water swatting ducks repeatedly with loads that equal buckshot in power out of an 870, particularly after steel shot,so fast follow up shots are not a problem for me, When a bill is about dive, you learn to shoot 'em fast and until they stop moving, not unlike you would in a self-defense situation.Even got a lot of good practice reloading under pressure that way. I found the SpeedFeed stocks were great for that.
 
I shot a pump shotgun from 1960 till 1993. First a Rem Model 31 in 20 gauge, then a Rem 870 in 12 Gauge. I bought my first Rem 1100 in 12 gauge in 1993 ( used ) and my 1100 in 20 gauge lightweight in about 1996 (new ), and it was all down hill for my pumps. I tried going back to my 1974 manufactured 870 in the early 2000's, but I kept forgetting to pump when pheasant hunting. Luckily they were singles and I only needed one shot. I am tempted to take my 870 to South Dakota this fall as my back up shotgun. I may have to go to the sporting clays range to get my brain straight.

As to the video's about "slam fire", I think they mean that the older shotguns had no interrupter to prevent this from happening. Now it is one trigger pull , one shot. A true slam fire is very dangerous because whenever you close the action, the gun fires on it's own with NO trigger being pulled. I have a Rem model 12 , 22 rifle that has no interrupter, it was made in 1926. My dad said he fired it at turkey thieves one night in the late1930's. The neighbor wanted to know when he got a machine gun.
 
I shot a pump shotgun from 1960 till 1993. First a Rem Model 31 in 20 gauge, then a Rem 870 in 12 Gauge. I bought my first Rem 1100 in 12 gauge in 1993 ( used ) and my 1100 in 20 gauge lightweight in about 1996 (new ), and it was all down hill for my pumps. I tried going back to my 1974 manufactured 870 in the early 2000's, but I kept forgetting to pump when pheasant hunting. Luckily they were singles and I only needed one shot. I am tempted to take my 870 to South Dakota this fall as my back up shotgun. I may have to go to the sporting clays range to get my brain straight.

As to the video's about "slam fire", I think they mean that the older shotguns had no interrupter to prevent this from happening. Now it is one trigger pull , one shot. A true slam fire is very dangerous because whenever you close the action, the gun fires on it's own with NO trigger being pulled. I have a Rem model 12 , 22 rifle that has no interrupter, it was made in 1926. My dad said he fired it at turkey thieves one night in the late1930's. The neighbor wanted to know when he got a machine gun.
I have the opposite problem; I try to pump 1100's when I shoot them. :rofl:
 
The hardest part is keeping it all in line while working the action. It's real easy to pull it off target. Takes some practice. I don't practice. I used to when I was young and dumber. My pair of elderly mdl 12, 16 ga (1926 & 1929) work great, and I'd like to keep it that way.
That can't be good for 'em.
 
As long as the operator doesn't mess up pumps CAN be every bit as fast for repeat shots as a semi. The problem is operator error. When trying to shoot that fast short stroking and jamming up the gun is fairly common. Doing it at the range is a lot different than while someone is shooting at you.

In my experience a pump is more reliable and just as fast in theory. But in practice I find a semi to be more reliable since it eliminates human error. No real difference in speed.
 
Entropy I had the same problem of trying to pump my 1100 when I first started shooting it. Now it is funny, then it made me feel sort of stupid.

I see that you live in Wisconsin. I lived there from 1948 till 1991. Then I lived in Georgia from 1991 till 2005. Then back to Wi from 2005 till 2014, then I retired to South Carolina in 2014. Both states are too hot, with no pheasants, ducks or geese. Oh the humanity. I do get to go to South Dakota to pheasant hunt for a week in early November every year to use my NON-PUMP 1100's. If I had a vote in my 2 person household, I would have voted to stay in Wisconsin when I retired.
 
Yeah, I live just across the river from the Twin Cities, where I grew up. I married a Wisconsin farmer's daughter, and ended up here, after a 2 year stint in TX. (Plano area)
 
Wisconsin is a beautiful state. Lots of beautiful land and lots of beautiful women. I've never hunted Wisconsin but it looks like a great place for upland game and waterfowl. Next time I go to South Dakota I'm going to see about a nonresident license for Wisconsin as it is on the way.

I'll take my 12 gauge Model 12 this time, as my 16 gauge Ithaca is retired. :)
 
Wisconsin has a pretty good pheasant put and take program. Or if you will released birds. If you know where to go in south central Wi. (Walworth and Jefferson counties). where I was from, you can get quite a few birds. A little farther north there are a few wild birds to be had (Dodge and Fond du Lac counties). Then in the western part of the state along the Mississippi river ( Polk, St. Croix and Dunn counties ) . When I started pheasant hunting in 1960, there were so many pheasants you did not need a dog to find them. I lived in the country and worked for the surrounding farmers baling hay. With a perk of hunting in the fall. A lot has changed, and the released birds are what most hunters find.
 
Close. Western Minnesota and most of South Dakota are better. I live in St. Croix County, WI, the pheasants are OK around here, but I have one friend who owns a game farm, and one that works at another, so I haven't hunted wild except my wife's folks farm for years.
 
When I was a teen (50 years ago) we made a couple of trips to Mexico bird hunting. My mentor was my closest friends dad. Boyd had a old Outers trap set up on a table in his field. We would shoot every weekend that we could. That old trap would throw triples. One was lobbed 30' to the right, the middle one went straight out at a pretty good clip and the third was a bat out of Hell to the left. You took the right, left and middle in that order. My old Westernfield got a workout but I got pretty consistent on the triples. Wasn't any easier with Boyd's A-5 Light Twelve.
 
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