Push/pull

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Blackstone

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Here I am again with another techniques thread. This time I'm looking at the push/pull technique to make follow-up shots as fast as possible.

My idea of the push/pull is to push away from me with my firing hand, and to pull back towards me with the support hand. I was under the impression that this technique was used with the Weaver stance. I use the thumbs forward grip with the modern isosceles, but find that even a 9mm seems to recoil too much. When I incorporate some push/pull, I find I can get back on target much faster. The downside is, with the extra exertion and tension, my trigger finger's "dexterity" suffers and I'm more likely to jerk the trigger. It also tires my arms faster, as I'm probably below average strength for a male of my age.

The latter I plan to deal with by working out a lot more. While I'm sure the final answer will be "do what works for you", I still can't help but feel I'm missing something.
 
The PUSH is barely perceptible, as is the pull. It's more of a tendency to push and pull.

Grip.png
 
Learning to focus on the front sight, and nothing else except trigger, will do more for your shooting accuracy then all the pushing and pulling you can stand in one day.

rc
 
Blackstone said:
I was under the impression that this technique was used with the Weaver stance.
Click to expand...

The push/pull at 60/40 is a major part of the Weaver, not used "with" the Weaver stance.

I use the thumbs forward grip with the modern isosceles, but find that even a 9mm seems to recoil too much.
Click to expand...

The Modern Isosceles is much more than simply pointing you're thumbs forward.

I still can't help but feel I'm missing something.
Click to expand...

You are if you're not properly applying "static tension" for the Modern Iso.
 
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Blackstone said:
This time I'm looking at the push/pull technique to make follow-up shots as fast as possible.

I use the thumbs forward grip with the modern isosceles, but find that even a 9mm seems to recoil too much. When I incorporate some push/pull, I find I can get back on target much faster.
Click to expand...

I'm not a fan of the push/pull for 2 reasons: First, it's often used as a physical attempt to prevent the gun from recoiling. Not only is fighting the gun in this way a largely futile endeavor, it's pointless, too: Recoil is fast, so the real issue is whether the muzzle returns to it's original position after the shot. A neutral grip allows the muzzle to return consistently for the fast follow-up shot.

I'm also not a fan of push/pull because it hinders accuracy, IMO. Accuracy is a product of consistency. A consist grip is very important, but the push/pull adds 2 more (unnecessary) opportunities (push and pull) for shot-to-shot inconsistency.
 
David E said:
The push/pull at 60/40 is a major part of the Weaver, not used "with" the Weaver stance.



The Modern Isosceles is much more than simply pointing you're thumbs forward.



You are if you're not properly applying "static tension" for the Modern Iso.
Click to expand...
What is this static tension?
 
Blackstone said:
What is this static tension?
Click to expand...

I risk misinterpreting David E, but "static tension" is the neutral grip I referred to above.

Imagine gripping a piece of tissue paper such that neither hand influences the other. A neutral grip won't tear the tissue, but you can still grip it firmly, control it, and quickly move it around to different POAs. When shooting, one hand overlaps the other, but the grip can still be neutral if you're not externally influencing the gun.
 
While I'm sure the final answer will be "do what works for you", I still can't help but feel I'm missing something.
Click to expand...
Hmmm..."do what works for you" is only applicable if you are completely familiar and more or less equally practiced in the various alternatives, and can accurately assess which method truely is fastest and most accurate for you. (Generally you'll find that other competent shooters have arrived at the same determination you will make.)

Otherwise "do what works for you" turns into "Do whatever seems easiest to the neophyte" -- and that's rarely the best answer in any endeavor.

Take a look at Todd Jarrett's great grip video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ysa50-plo48

Notice, he doesn't get into any push/pull discussion. It isn't important or helpful.

But watch what he does with his support hand. What is important isn't resistance front-to-back, but the even pressure he's able to exert squeezing side-to-side.

(You also might catch his line, "You're more consistent day to day doing this than using the Weaver.")
 
Hit the range today, focusing on covering as much of the gun as I could with a firm grip and just letting it recoil freely. I was surprised by just how fast the sights fell back down on target without any real effort on my part. Looks like push/pull is out of the books now ;)
 
Fantastic! Good for you getting out there and giving it a try!

There was a period of time (actually when the Weaver stance was most popular) when it was thought that you could "control" (or FIGHT) recoil. Now the state of the art recognizes that you can't fight recoil but that if your grip is appropriate it simply happens, very fast, your gun returns to battery in a small fraction of a second, and you are still where you were when it started and thus can fire again.

You don't have to fight the recoil to be able to fire accurately at rates in excess of 5 shots a second.
 
The sad part now is, I have to go back to university in mainland Britain, so no more pistols for a few months. At least I'm leaving it on a high note and hope to pick up where I left off come December :)
 
MrBorland said:
I risk misinterpreting David E, but "static tension" is the neutral grip I referred to above.
Click to expand...

Negative.

The grip is part of the "static tension," but not all of it.

Heres how to get it: Stand in front of a wall about 3 feet away. Raise your arms parallel to the floor, hands coming together as if you were holding a gun. The hands should be 12-14" away from the wall. Keeping your body straight, pitch yourself into the wall. Do some pushups. After the 5th one, come all the way back, locking your elbows. Then slightly break the elbows and hold the position for 20 seconds. Pay attention to the muscles you're using to maintain this position. THIS is the "static tension" you're putting behind the gun for each and every shot.

You're using a "circle of power" that starts in the hands and goes around your torso. You can use this static tension/circle of power to shoot accurately while seated, kneeling or moving.

Align the inside of the support hand knuckles with the knuckles of the gun hand. Imagine this to be a fulcrum point to apply a clamshell grip on the gun. (think: "I must, I must, I must increase me bust," as it's the same principle for that exercise) You are squeezing grip panels together, totally unlike Weaver that applies pressure fore and aft.

Support hand applies 70% of the tension, gun hand applies 30%

There is nothing neutral about this grip.

Properly executed, you can get fast accurate hits on a 7 yd IPSC target with .15 splits all day.
 
Ok...0.15 is pretty blazing fast. 0.20, sure. But to his sub-0.15s consistently is very advanced.
 
Ok, the .15 split won't happen the first day, more like .18-.20, but the mechanics are there.
 
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