Putting a little more power in a $15.00 Daisy

[cobalt327]

TABLE OF CONTENTS

I don't know if there's any interest in this, but if there is I'd be happy to give the details. But briefly, to gain power I enlarged the air tube ID and shimmed the plunger spring. Cost was $0.00, only rub is a drill bit is needed that will reach to the bottom of a 2-3/4" air tube. This is a little longer than some drill bit sets. The shim can be made from a piece of copper tubing, among other things. Lastly, a spring compressor is needed. I used a couple lengths of welding rod and a piece of wood to make one- simple to do.

The $15.00 Daisy Model 105 Buck is the cheapest Daisy I know of, but it uses the same power plant as the Red Ryder so that's why I chose it to use as the guinea pig. There are some differences between the new Daisys and the old Daisys that had removable shot tubes, but the basics are the same so this will work on a large number of lever action as well as pump guns like the Model 25.

The can below shows what my 1 month old factory stock, new production Red Ryder does. along w/the modded Model 105 (can below says "104", but it's really a 105). Both were shot point-blank, using the same BBs. This was repeated w/the same results.

 

[Mauser lover]

I would be interested in seeing some more testing on this, such as testing on phone books, etc. I have a break-barrel .22 cal that could use a flatter trajectory... Maybe I just need a bigger spring though.

 

[cobalt327]

I'm no expert, but I can give you a couple things to consider. Just remember- more power doesn't mean better accuracy. So if you want your air gun to be accurate, don't go overboard on bigger springs. You might try a small spacer to preload the spring, depending on how your gun is put together- but removing/replacing the spring requires care, eye protection is a must and you'll need a spring compressor tool.

If your gun has seen a lot of use, the spring may be ready for replacement. There are sources for replacement springs for all the major brands and there are also springs that can be bought by matching the dimensions if you have an off-brand. Breech seals are also prone to degradation over time. Put a piece of tissue paper over the area where the barrel meets the receiver then shoot a pellet from the gun. If the tissue gets blown by leakage past the breech seal, it's time to replace it.

Barrel break guns usually have a transfer port that the compressed air passes through right before reaching the pellet. Sometimes this port can be enlarged, but bigger isn't always better. Some high-end air guns have replaceable ports.

FWIW, below is a DelMonte fruit cocktail 'real' tin can (can above is aluminum), shot by the same two guns as above. Easy to see which has more "oats". Tin cans are what we used as kids to compare our BB guns. If you split the can, you had some decent power. I never saw a single cock BB gun go all the way through a real tin can- this took a pump up gun.

 

[cobalt327]

Red Ryder powerplant

Ran across this excellent article on what makes the Red Ryder tick. VERY informative! If you've not read this and have an interest in the simpler Daisy BB guns, it's a must!

RED RYDER POWERPLANT http://www.pyramydair.com/article/A_look_inside_the_BB_gun_powerplant_August_2009/64

 

[cobalt327]

Besides the new production Red Ryder and Model 105 Buck I just bought and modified, I also have an old style Model 104 w/removable shot tube. It’s the same size externally as the new type Model 105 but internally there are differences:


Plunger assembly minus plunger heads

Old model spring wire diameter is 0.82” (2.1mm). The spring OD is ~0.706” (17.5mm), ID is 0.530”. Old spring has 21 coils and is not flat ground on ends. Free length is 7.5” (has many thousands of shots on it during its ~45 years use). The retainer pin is round. Old spring rate is about 30 pounds per inch. Spring travel for old Model 104 is 2-3/8”.

New model spring wire diameter is 0.91” (2.3mm). The spring OD is ~0.720” (17.5mm), ID is 0.530”. New spring has 28 coils and is flat ground on ends. Free length is 7”. The retainer pin has flats but oddly the flat side is not used against the ground spring ends. New spring rate is about 25 pounds per inch (both spring rates are rough estimate for now, will measure again as time permits). Spring travel for new Red Ryder Model 1938B is 1-7/8”.

The old plunger/guide tube is 1/2” OD. The new plunger/guide tube is 15/32” OD. The slightly closer fit between the plunger tube OD and spring ID may well account for there being no spring twang/vibration on the old gun versus the new one (both the new 105 and my new Red Ryder have the same twang- and they share the exact same powerplant). There are some differences in the rear stamped steel cross piece where the trigger (and sear of the new plastic housing trigger) latches. This can be seen in one of the photos.



Air tube details. Circled areas on the air tubes are the outlet port.

Enlarging the air tube ID is at the heart of making the gun shoot harder. Just adding preload to the spring will be largely wasted unless the air tube is opened up. The new model's air tube has the same ID as the old model from the '70s but they're both smaller than a factory air tube from a '60s Model 1894. The 1894 factory air tube ID was said to be a #40 drill bit (0.098"). I'm currently using an ID of 3/32" (0.094) on the factory air tubes. A standard 3/32" bit isn't usually going to be long enough to reach the bottom of the outlet port on the air tube so I use a standard drill bit for as deep as it'll go then a longer "specialty" bit to finish it off so as to not wear out the long bit prematurely.

The new model outlet port is actually larger (this area is circled, two photos up). The air tubes are not the same length and the air outlets are in slightly different places. Because the new model air tube is shorter, it can't be retrofitted into an old model, else double feeds may result.



New vs. old trigger

The triggers are very different and cannot be exchanged between the old and new models. The trigger hole in the receiver is located 3/8” further rearward on the old model, this accounts for (at least some of) the difference in spring guide tube travel. I got rid of the anti-beartrap by removing the spring. Cocking is MUCH smoother and quieter- like it's supposed to be.

The rearmost trigger return spring (not seen in side view) has also been removed to lighten pull. The pull can be lightened even further by using the rear return spring in place of the front sear spring. The factory sear spring is about twice as stiff as the rear return spring. Be careful! Set up like that, the pull will be very light and could be unsafe in some guns. So be sure to unload the gun while safety testing the trigger after any modifications! BTW, this type Daisy BB gun can be dry fired.

It's a shame the almost-all-steel trigger from the "Worlds Most Accurate" Model 499B cannot be used in the regular Daisy lever guns- it's a whole lot better than the plastic/metal trigger now used on the new models.

The new model's rubber plunger head (seal) and washer are the same as the old model (7/8” OD) and can be interchanged. The old model has a staked-in abutment in the receiver. The old style abutment has a threaded ID so the shot tube can be removed and it uses a separate 1/4” thick x 7/8” OD rubber barrel seal/"bumper" on the compression chamber side that can be removed/replaced. The new model does not use a separate abutment and barrel seal like the old model. On the new model, the abutment and the barrel seal is built into the shot tube assembly. The new model shot tube is now being staked in place and is not ordinarily meant to be removed, but it can be if needed by driving it out from the muzzle towards the breech. Got to be careful replacing it to get the right side ‘up’ so BBs will feed right.

Replacement parts sourced directly from Daisy/DAMACO to follow (including how to get individual barrel and plunger seals)…




Model 104 with Red Ryder furniture top, Red Ryder with full size buttstock bottom

 

[cobalt327]

Settled on a 5/8" spacer. Added a 13/16" OD thin washer installed onto the plunger tube first, followed by spacer. The washer makes compressing the spring a lot easier. Also added a 2" length of 3/8" wooden dowel rod epoxied inside the plunger tube to help keep the 'legs' of the tube from bowing under the added pressure from shimming the spring. The older removable shot tube Daisys had a stronger plunger tube, no reinforcement would be needed for a 5/8" spacer.

ETA I said earlier that the spring travel of the new model was 1-7/8". It is actually 2". Also the spring wire diameter is 0.082" for the old model and 0.091" for the new model. Not too sure how I got this wrong, but there you go...

This combination, along w/the enlarged ID of the air tube, makes for a flat shooting BB gun that will almost pierce the bottom of a 'real' tin can. I could use a bigger spacer, and there's a little more room to make the air tube ID bigger but this combo is a good balance- cocking effort is increased but not to the point where it will beat the gun up, accuracy is as good as it was before and the range is increased considerably before I have to resort to "lobbing" the BB to the target. And it's FUN!









Before mods the new Red Ryder would only dent the can. Now, it splits it easily.

 

[cobalt327]

Got the chance today to put several hundred BBs through the modded Red Ryder. I could feel the gun gradually shooting harder as it settled in.

Using the same tin can as shown above, I shot it same as before. This time the BB went all the way through the can, no problem. This is a considerable increase in MV over what it was as-delivered. It shoots higher now, I had to remove the rear sight elevator to get the POI right at 24 yards. Glad that did it, didn't want to have to file the rear sight notch any deeper if I could help it. Before the increase in MV I had to dial in quite a bit of elevation for targets at that distance.



This has become more about the Red Ryder than I originally planned. The little Model 105 Buck is what I was going to use, but since the powerplants are identical everything here is applicable to either one.

I will say this: the shorter barreled 105 will shoot harder than the RR, all else being equal. And if not for the non adjustable rear sight of the 105, I'd be using it w/the adult size stock.

 

[cobalt327]

Daisy Lever Action, Gravity Feed Workshop Manual

 

[cobalt327]

I mentioned earlier how the gun was shooting high after the modifications. I first removed the rear sight elevator entirely and this put me on target at about 22 yards. But I really wanted to be able to adjust elevation whenever needed.

Earlier I had bought a couple extra front sights when I made an order w/Daisy- cost $1.00 each. So I decided to drill and tap a factory front sight for a small screw that would be used as the front sight post. Being a screw, it's adjustable, and the amount of adjustment available will be more than enough for any occasion. So now, no more having to 'bury' the front sight in the rear sight notch to compensate. For now I left the original front sight blade in place. At some point I'll probably remove it, leaving just my adjustable post.

Adjusting windage was also needed- this gun has shot a smidgen to the right of POA ever since it was new and factory original. To rectify this, I sanded the left side of the sight's OD (the sight is also the barrel plug, it slips inside the "barrel" of the gun) and added aluminum duct tape to the right side to shift the POI left. This is a trial and retrial type deal, it took several fittings to get things sorted out but was worth the effort.

 

[cobalt327]

Following is info on an adult-sized stock I put on my Red Ryder. It’s supposed to be ‘plug and play’ after finishing, but it turned out needing some attention. One problem was that the two holes (one vertical hole for a wood screw, one horizontal hole for a #10-32 machine screw) were both drilled in the wrong place. This caused the cocking lever to sit below the stock, leaving a gap. Besides looking bad, this could cause the stock to loosen over time- in other words, unacceptable. So instead of returning it I decided to just fix it. This left me with a good Red Ryder stock that I put to use on my Model 104 that came with a short plastic stock. The RR stock needed a 1/4” hole added for the trigger return spring along with some minor fitting to allow the trigger to work normally. While I was at it, I added a fiber optic rear sight from a CVA muzzle loader. It was missing the aperture/looks-like-a-scope rear sight when I bought it at a yard sale years ago. Since then, I remover the FO sight and am now using a rear sight from a Winchester Model 60A. The sight notch had been enlarged- not good for a .22, but fine for the Daisy.

Fortunately the original holes were far enough off that the new holes didn’t intersect them. I went ahead and filled the old holes before drilling the new ones. First I glued a small dowel made from a bamboo skewer and tapped it in place to close the vertical hole. I used a birch dowel bought from Ace Hardware to plug the bigger hole, cost less than 4 bits. After the glue dried I cut the ends off with a hobby saw. The new holes were drilled on a benchtop drill press after marking and double checking their locations. While there, I countersunk the forearm screw hole so the screw is now flush.

The other lesser annoyance is the new stock is made from 13/16” thick wood (1/16” thinner than the 7/8” factory stock). The sheet steel the Daisy is made from is thin, so the ‘ears’ can be bent inwards to compensate- but this warps the flat sides of the receiver. So I made up two brass shims from 0.032” sheet stock to compensate. After sanding down to 400 grit I finished with clear satin spar urethane over Carver Tripp Danish Finish in American Walnut.

FWIW, if I knew I would need to fill/relocate holes and make shims for an unfinished stock that costs as much as a new Red Ryder, I would have simply used the RR stock as a template to make a longer stock- like I was going to do originally. Just adding some length to the RR stock would have been more than sufficient, but an enterprising fabricator could easily add some ‘style’, too. One possible hurdle to doing this is sourcing 7/8” thick wood- standard “1 by” lumber measures 3/4” and in my opinion wouldn’t look very good, although if shims were used it should work fine. A ‘full profile’ Red Ryder stock would require a 5” wide x 18” long board, although 4” wide would work with a small change in appearance.

AS RECEIVED


NEW HOLE DRILLED


RELATIVE STOCK SIZES- Top is the original Model 104 plastic stock, middle is the Red Ryder and bottom is the adult sized stock.


DURING STAINING


FINISHED, WITH RED RYDER 'CARBINE' (MODEL 104)

 

[cobalt327]

More Daisy

Trigger
My biggest complaint w/the current production plastic trigger was the anti-beartrap/ratchet affair the legal staff dreamt up. Cocking the gun felt and sounded like something was broken! So I set out to remove the ratchet. Removing the trigger assembly is fairly simple- not as easy as the old stamped steel trigger, but not bad at all. The buttstock needs to come off then, after removing the screw that secures the trigger assembly, put the safety “ON” (no red showing) and it slides out the rear of the receiver. Once the trigger is in hand, removing the spring that holds the steel ratchet rack in tension allows the gun to be cocked 'normally' (photos in post #5). The spring is very stiff so wear eye protection!! The whole sound/feel of cocking the gun is now a ton better w/o all the monkey motion. Quiet and buttery-smooth just the way it should be.

As mentioned earlier, the hole through the receiver of a gun w/a plastic trigger is in a different place than for the steel trigger, so replacing the new style plastic trigger/safety assembly with an old style steel trigger (or vice versa) ain't happening w/o quite a bit of fussing. If it wasn't enough that the holes are different, the rear of the plunger tubes are also different where the triggers latch. Fortunately, once the plastic trigger has broken in and the rearmost trigger return spring is removed, the pull is on a par w/a Daisy w/a steel trigger. Now that the pull has smoothed out with use (plus I've gotten used to it) it’s not a hindrance to accuracy.
NOTE- Contrary to what was eluded to earlier regarding using a return spring in place of the factory sear spring, I do NOT recommend using any sear spring other than the factory spring! The reset is way too vague using a return spring in place of the factory sear spring and this could lead to an unexpected discharge.

Metal Lever
Most Red Ryders come w/a composite (plastic) cocking lever. There’s nothing particularly wrong w/it- it’s plenty strong and works as it should. But the thing is, the lever is used constantly and every time I cocked the gun I was aware the lever was plastic and this bugged me. So I added it to a parts order I was making w/Daisy. The curved metal cocking lever was only $3.00 ($2.00 for plastic), so this was a no-brainer! It's hard to describe how much better the metal lever feels except to say Daisy should charge a dollar more per gun and use them on all their lever guns and forget the plastic lever ever existed! The new metal levers have a nylon insert where the receiver "pinches" the lever to hold it in the closed position. At first I wasn't sure I liked that idea, but in use it works flawlessly.

 

[cobalt327]

Red Ryder order form, schematic

I've seen parts for the Red Ryder and Model 25 pump being sold on eBay and elsewhere for unbelievable prices compared to what Daisy charges for them. I'm now using Alana Arntfield as my email contact to order parts. Shipping is no longer $3.50, it varies by the size/weight. Daisy ships via FedEx.

Alana Arntfield
Daisy Outdoor Products - CSR
800-713-2479
[email protected]

Below is for the Model 1938B Red Ryder:

 

[damoc]

Very cool I have an old probably collectable version thats tired you have given me the motivation to try and refurbish.

 

[cobalt327]

If yours old enough to have a leather seal, I read there are ways to rejuvenate them, w/o needing to disassemble the gun. Involves using the right type of oil in the oil hole and through the air tube if I'm remembering right. This lets the seal soak up the oil and become pliable again. There are also tutorials on making leather seals as well as at least one place that sells them. There are also synthetic seals to replace the leather ones.

Anyway, if you need to take it apart, there's tons of info online- including how to make a spring compressor. I used a piece of 5/8" ID (0.70" OD) conduit from Home Depot. Hacksawed the slots and it works fine. There's a nice wood handled tool available like Daisy used to sell but the kicker is it costs $50.00.

 

[kBob]

Is there someplace we can see all such parts and order sheets on line or in a PDF format?

DO they by chance have the decals for the "gold engraved" receiver models from the late 50's and early 60's?

Although it would not look neat, ages ago when the kids were pre school I cut a couple of inches off a BUCK stock so they would have the correct pull. When they got big enough for regular stocks I tossed the Buck in a corner and got them Red Riders (also found myself a old style model 25 with apperature rear to be able to keep out shooting them.)

Any how It occurs to me that I might simply pin a bit of board to the cut on the BUCK stop and plain and sand it down to the correct width. Maybe some filler at the join line, sand everything smooth and in true rock and roll form "paint it black"

I am thinking wooden pegs like in furniture assembly and maybe a wood screw or two.

I wonder if a local carpentry or cabinet maker shop or wood working shop might run some boards through their planer to make them the correct width for a small fee. An adult size stock on several of my old closet BB guns might bring them back to life. Wonder if the local High School shop has a plainer......

-kBob

 

[cobalt327]

Some current parts diagrams are below. If you email Ms. Zehm at the address above and tell her which models you want parts diagrams for, she'll send them to you in a PDF. They are available for all currently made guns, but not for out of production models, nor do they stock parts for the obsolete guns. That said, you can sometimes find parts for a different model that will work. A couple such examples are the barrel seal and plunger seal for the current production Model 25 pump work in the early 'wide frame' lever action BB guns (88, 90, 95, 96, 98, 99, etc.). The current Model 25 shot tube will work in earlier guns that shot steel BBs. The 25 air tube fits many steel shot BB guns that have pinned-on air tubes.

HERE is a link to archived diagrams for many out of production Daisy BB guns.

MODEL 1938B RED RYDER/MODEL 1998 “PINK”



MODEL 10:



MODEL 105



MODEL 25:



MODEL 499B "World’s Most Accurate BB Gun":

 

[kBob]

cobalt327,

Thanks for posting those images and responding to me.

I now need to go check some Series numbers and Model numbers.

Nice to see those sight inserts I need for a 499 might be still available. With an actual front sight post it might actually be accurate whether most accurate or not!

-kBob

 

[Inimical Jim]

I was also annoyed by the plastic lever so I made one out of brass. The material cost more than the gun but there's no other one like it. Local American Legions have Red Ryder spot shoots and I have been trying to get every advantage of accuracy I can. I am currently in the process of building a trigger assembly to get a lighter pull. Higher velocity will help but my first steps will be trigger pull and sights. And even though it serves absolutely no purpose and it isn't even noticeable, I replaced the rawhide lanyard with elephant hide.

 

[cobalt327]

I'm guessing you made the brass lever from flat stock? In any event, bet it looks good. What about a brass forearm band? haha

Do your matches allow a different buttstock? Making the length of pull longer helped my off-hand accuracy a lot. I bought some oak to make a stock myself; the stock I bought needed work before it was right and cost as much as the Red Ryder did, so I won't go that route again.

Can you legally change sights in these matches? I have the rear sights assembly and inserts for the Model 499B coming from Daisy, having adjustable windage will be a good addition. I've seen where people have added red dots and scopes, but the cost for the optic mount is... you guessed it- as much as the gun costs! At that rate, someone could have over a hundred bucks in a RR, not counting the optics and that's, well, kinda crazy. Especially considering the 499B is available- I doubt a Red Ryder could beat one of them regardless of what was done to the RR.

I removed the rearmost return spring and that lightened the pull but any more improvement will mean breaking into the trigger assembly to get at the sear. It gets smoother the longer it's used as you've probably seen, so at least there's that. Unfortunately the nice trigger from the 499 (all metal except for the pawl and safety arm, and can be easily disassembled) does not fit the RR receiver. Sure would be killer if it did!

 

[Panzerschwein]

Looks like a great hunting rifle. How's the accuracy?

 

[W.E.G.]

I warms my heart that folks still enjoy working on these old-school air guns.

Keep up the good work!

 

[cobalt327]

@Cooldill - I don't hunt any game w/this Daisy. Even w/the power increased it lacks enough 'oomph' for humane kills, so all I hunt w/it is cans and paper targets!

Accuracy: I can get 1" 5-shot groups at 10 meters, but not every time. Now, this is a smoothbore as I'm sure you know, so it'll throw a knuckleball every so often but overall I'd rate the accuracy as good, all things considered. Where it really shines is at increased distances. Now that the velocity is higher, I can hit targets using a proper sight picture a lot further away than before the mods, without needing to "lob" the BBs in to the targets. I have 12 oz. soda cans hanging from branches posted around the property- the two I shoot at from right outside my front door are 22 yards away, and it's no problem to draw a bead on them and get hits.

@ W.E.G.- I'm glad you've enjoyed the journey. Like you, these humble Daisys will always have a place in my heart- and cabinet!

 

[cobalt327]

Have a chronograph coming soon, so I will be able to put some numbers to the changes made as well as comparing unmodified to modified. At this point it looks like I will be limiting the BBs to just the readily-available zinc plated Daisy BBs. I'd liked to have tried an assortment, but find it hard to justify another $40.00 for mail order BBs that have been shown in other testing to be only marginally better than the Daisy BBs I have on hand.

 

[cobalt327]

I will also be comparing velocity and accuracy of the Daisys (including a new Model 25 pump) to a Crosman Marlin Cowboy BB gun, as well as taking the Cowboy apart to see how it compares to the Red Ryder. I know the triggers sure look similar from what can be seen in the photos. Should be interesting…

 

[cobalt327]

Received the Sheridan Cowboy BB repeater recently, and had a chance to shoot it before disassembling. It shoots slightly harder than a Red Ryder- but not by much. Unfortunately my chronograph is being returned to Pyramyd by FedEx because they got the address wrong somehow, so velocity testing will have to wait.

My first impression of the Cowboy was mostly favorable. The compression chamber diameter is carried all the way forward on the Cowboy; the Red Ryder necks down right after the chamber so the Cowboy ‘barrel’ looks bigger- almost like a shotgun. After using the Sheridan Cowboy for several hundred shots, all I can say is gimme back my Red Ryder! The biggest complaint is the inaccuracy, second is the very un-ergonomic cocking lever. BUT- it’s metal! As if that really mattered- the composite/plastic Daisy lever has held up just fine to thousands of shots from a gun that has a stronger cocking effort because of the spacers I added to preload the plunger spring. And feels a lot better when cocking the gun. Levers do not interchange.

I disassembled the Cowboy (takedown is same as a Daisy) and found a stronger plunger spring. Relaxed, it’s 0.75” longer and is made of wire that’s 0.003” larger in diameter. Using the spring dimensions on an online calculator indicates the Cowboy spring rate is increased by about 15% over the Daisy. Unfortunately the air tube has the same ID as the Daisys use, and the air tube is slightly longer to boot. It’s my opinion that the stronger spring is largely negated by the one simple omission of opening the air tube ID to 3/32”. I haven’t decided whether I’ll bother w/modifying the air tube on the Cowboy- at this stage I’m leaning towards using the plunger spring (w/a preload spacer, length of which has yet to be determined) and possibly the plunger tube from the Cowboy in a Red Ryder.

A quick word on the Cowboy plunger tube- it’s equipped w/a plastic roller that rides along the top of the receiver when the gun is cocked. I like the concept, but I also have to say I’ve not noticed any excessive contact between the receiver and tube on any of the Daisys I’ve had apart- so whether it’s an actual improvement or something that seems like a good idea but has little real world effect on reliability/longevity remains to be seen.

Trigger assemblies are very similar and would be interchangeable if not for the Cowboy using a larger OD screw to secure the trigger in the receiver. Unlike the Daisy, the Cowboy trigger can be disassembled, and I consider that a plus.