AJumbo
Member
Ever hit the bike trails with the Cub bungeed to the handlebars? OK, I'll quit dragging this thread down the rabbit hole.... I just had a serious nostalgia attack, is all. Thanks for all your hard work on this insane project, sir!
Putting a little more power in a $15.00 Daisy
Ever hit the bike trails with the Cub bungeed to the handlebars? OK, I'll quit dragging this thread down the rabbit hole.... I just had a serious nostalgia attack, is all. Thanks for all your hard work on this insane project, sir!
I don't remember if there were bungees back then (if there were I didn't have any...), but sure- many times we'd take off on our bikes w/BB guns in tow, often w/my baseball mitt hanging from the bottom of the highrise handlebars! At one point I had a sort of scabbard but after it nearly threw me over the bars from tangling in the spokes, I abandoned it.
This whole thing has been a blast and is more entertaining than I'd ever thought it would be!
This whole thing has been a blast and is more entertaining than I'd ever thought it would be!
I read about your light system with 2 12" shop lights and some blasted clear acrylic or polycarbonate. I didn't follow how you have it set up. Could you give a bit more detail please? Also type and wattage of bulbs? Thx?
When I got it in my hands and did a bit of cleaning, it is marked 102 36. I've seen the cub, but don't know what differences there are.
I was reasonably sure that it was an anomaly. It didn't occur to me that it could be deleted at the moment. It seemed like it might be fun to post it! It was the first shot of a string using the daisy (Walmart) bb's. However I had shot a bunch of copper heads through it already. So, no, don't think it was dieseling.The shenanigans wasn't on you doing anything nefarious, rather I'd have to believe that it was a anomaly w/the chrono. I do know I've seen uber high- and low- readings from my unit on rare occasions, and if they're ridiculously off I simply delete them. Now, if they repeat w/any sort of frequency, then maybe. But even w/o the 575 fps reading, the rest are nothing short of excellent and are something to be proud of, IMO.
Just a thought- do you think there could have been any substance in the barrel that would have dieseled under the rather low-pressure conditions of the Daisy powerplant? It would have to have been the first shot of the string for this to hold water (eta- I see now it was the first shot of the string...), unless you stopped mid-string for a cleaning, etc. And there would have been a noticeably louder report. Now, there are things like starter fluid that will diesel in a 8:1 CR automobile engine for instance. BTW, a lot of guys believe the ether is lit by the spark ignition, and that may sometimes be the case- but you can run an engine w/the ignition disabled as long as the starter will turn the engine over, the engine has compression and someone keeps spritzing starting fluid at the carb intake.
It definitely feels like it is shooting harder that the RR. The 1894 feels really weak. It really is a compromise, but it was my first BB gun, and I'm very happy to have held onto it all these years.
I leave it at work or id grab u a picture.
its just a 1/4" plate of plexiglass thats bead blasted on one side (could just as easily use steelwool to scuff it up, used to do this for the plexi rod i made car "halos" from) . It has divots drilled into it so it sits on the rods for the sky screens.
The lights are just cheap ACE aluminum clamp on lights, that just sit on top of the plexi over the sensors. i dont even have anything holding them down just plug them in and toss em on.
I think the bulbs are 40watt.
I'd give any of my BB guns to have my first one back- you've done well to hold on to it for so long. In fact, my yard sale Model 104 that started all this was bought solely because it reminded me of that Cub. This was back in about '78 or so and then I wasn't shooting any airguns, only powder burners. It sat mostly unused until for some reason lost to me now, I pulled it out and started plinking w/it. That led me to wanting more MV and the rest is now mostly in this thread.
Actually you can delete a shot or shots at any time. After doing so, when you go to 'Review', the chrono will recalculate the string specs w/o the deleted shots included in the results.
I also had trouble picking up readings on the Crossman Copper Head bb's.BB velocity test #5
CROSSMAN COPPERHEAD, bought 1992
Bracketed numbers = Extreme Spread, parenthesis = difference from Daisy Precision Max "standard" BB.
- STOCK Model 105 Buck................................258 fps [ES 7] (-2)
- STOCK MODEL 25........................................274 fps [ES 6] (-8)
- STOCK RED RYDER......................................266 fps [ES 4] (-4)
- MODIFIED RED RYDER #1............................329 fps [ES 2] (+1)
- MODIFIED RED RYDER #2............................333 fps [ES 5] (-2)
- COWBOY....................................................323 fps [ES 1] (-6)
FWIW for some reason I had a devil of a time getting the chronograph to 'see' these copper plated BBs. Had maybe 1 out of 5 record a velocity.
- Crossman Copper Head 7.6 BBs per 1¢, or 1.1 times more than the standard Daisy BB. Current pricing is used.
One more velocity test to go, I need to pick up some new Crosman Copper head BBs. Then I'll get to some accuracy testing. I have to say the Cowboy has put down some decent numbers for a bone stock BB gun. I have decided that after I shoot it for accuracy, I'm going to enlarge the air tube ID to the same 3/32" as the modified Red Ryders, but without any extra preload on the spring. That will show whether just opening up the air tube will result in any velocity increase. I'm curious to see what happens...
'Preciate it, LoonWulf.
I see! Thx. It will be easier if I can do some indoor trials.
If I hang a light up similar to yours, will I need to shut off my fluorescent lights?
Try it both ways but it wouldn't surprise me if it did better w/o fluorescents on.
Yes, current RRs are stamped Made in China. I believe most if not all commemorative models were made here, even when the majority were being made in China. The following is from a post I made at the GTA forum regarding when Daisy production moved to China:
"...Red Ryder [production moved to China] sometime around 2006. Prior to that there were guns made from US parts assembled in China. My 2000 Millennium model RR doesn't say on the gun where it was made- nothing except the Rodgers, AR address. On these guns the packaging said where the parts were from and where they were assembled. The actual crossover in the supply chain lasted from around 2006 to 2008.
FWIW, the quality of some of the parts that went into my 2000 Millennium (notably the shot tube and main spring) is below what the current China made RR guns contain. I posted about this here."
@hinz57, In trying to figure out why the velocity of your gun is so much higher than what I'm seeing, I'm wondering if using copper tubing for my preload spacer might be causing some drag on the plunger tube. IIRC you said the length of your spacer was 0.75" but I don't remember seeing the ID and OD. Was it cut from a length of tubing having the right size, or did you machine it? I'm hoping I can source delrin tubing having the size I need; no way for me to machine it.
This was a RR type plunger assembly and a stock shot tube, correct?
Did I read correctly that you used a 1-1/8" spacer in one of your guns?
Also I don't remember, what was the air tube ID? All but one of mine have been 3/32", the one was 7/64". I agree making a different air tube would make the most sense rather than drilling out factory tubes- I have broken more bits than I care to recount drilling them!
Bottom line is, you're very close to my original goal of 400 fps and if that could be achieved in a RR that wasn't eating itself up, I'd call it an unqualified success.
This was a RR type plunger assembly and a stock shot tube, correct?
Did I read correctly that you used a 1-1/8" spacer in one of your guns?
Also I don't remember, what was the air tube ID? All but one of mine have been 3/32", the one was 7/64". I agree making a different air tube would make the most sense rather than drilling out factory tubes- I have broken more bits than I care to recount drilling them!
Bottom line is, you're very close to my original goal of 400 fps and if that could be achieved in a RR that wasn't eating itself up, I'd call it an unqualified success.
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The spacer is 0.75 dia aluminum rod, drilled to 15/32" ID, parted off at 0.75"
I haven't used more preload than 0.75, at this time. I have several spacers that we parted off at different lengths. I have plans to add and subtract spacers to find the maximum preload possible, and to see how it affects mv. IIRC in one of your posts, you suggested that 1-1/8" was a calculated max spacer. I think there was a pic showing a series of spacers. I only have RR plunger assemblies. I'm also interested to see how the plunger tube fares under maximum load. Not sure if a billet aluminum plunger would work, in the area where the trigger catches the tube in the cocked position. Would the AL stand up to the wear?
The 1998 air tube is drilled to 7/64". Also it has the #25 shot tube, probably the biggest variable. The RR is #40, with a RR stock shot tube, 0.625 AL spacer. It's performance is similar to what you report.
We haven't broken drill bits while drilling, but it helps having the air tube chucked in a collet in a lathe. Used lots of tapping fluid. Makes feeding and control easier!
I have placed an order for 4 pcs of the tubing referenced by Englertracing. The shipping from England is more than the tubing price, so.....Each pc should yield 3 air tubes. I plan to make several. I could fix you up if you're interested. Supposed to arrive May 15, slow boat shipping I guess... Oddly enough, I couldn't located tubing of those specs domestically.
I'm looking forward to seeing what effect the air tube has. I predict over 400!
I was wondering if the RR and the 499 have the same piston displacement? Both are 7/8" bore but don't remember seeing the respective stroke. I remember some comparison of the RR and the Sheridan Cowboy.
Good luck!
flightsimmer
Member
Florescent lights will mess with chronographs, use incodescent lights only indoors.
Thx! Just curious, do flouresents cause error readings or incorrect velocity readings? Or what other issues?
Ah, okay. I’m thinking the tubing I’m using is working against me. Being so thin, if it’s even a little cocked on the plunger it could dig in and slow the action. Something having a thicker wall might help. On another forum there was some talk of molybdenum disulfide filled nylon. IIRC it was to be used for a striker in a CO2 gun. I had wanted to try some for a preload spacer but since aluminum works as good as it does, why bother, right?hinz57 said:
Yes, just over an inch was my estimate before coil bind. But I have to believe the plunger tube will go bowlegged before that much preload is added.
I think wear would be a problem judging by how the steel wears in the area where the trigger catches. And considering how much work would be involved with making one, it would be a shame to wear it out. What about using an overlay on the high-wear area made of a thin piece of steel, like a feeler gauge?
Okay, the No. 25 shot tube- I had almost forgotten about that in all the other discussions we’ve had. I have absolutely no doubt that it helps MV, and that’s not just a WAG- I’ve seen an increase in MV is every last BB gun I’ve used the 25 shot tube in compared to the original shot tube, even with original shot tubes that are in pristine condition. The percentage of increase in MV is also loosely tied to the base MV; the more MV, the more percentage of the increase.
Well, the air tube is right up there with the plunger tube as being the links to better performance, so after seeing what you’ve gotten already, I’m sure not doubting 400-plus being a possibility with the new tubing! And you being successful at drilling them to 7/64” is definitely a plus. As you know, the seemingly small difference in 3/32” (0.938”) and 7/74” (0.109”) is a large difference in area, relatively speaking. And we need all we can get in this regard!
Ultimately, engleracing’s idea of different tubing altogether will very likely prove its worth, and I’m anxious to see your results. If it pans out like we think it will, I’d definitely be in for a couple myself, so if you could post the info needed to order it, I’d appreciate it.
I listed the RR as being 1-7/8” but I’d want to remeasure it before saying that’s absolutely correct. It will be very close to that, though. I suspect the 499 will be the same but next time I have the stock off, I’ll measure it to see for sure.
So yeah- we’re not done yet!
I haven't used nylon much. I've used lots of delrin and uhmw/hdpe for bearing applications. Most anything would work. The AL was on the shelf so it got used. I think it's as good as anything. If it comes down to the last possibility to get past 399, then I might look at something exotic! So to speak...
I have some dry moly disulfide spray lube that I plan to coat everything with next time.
I'm still trying to see distortion in the plunger tube. Thus far I haven't experienced that as a problem. I'm trying to understand why it's happens. The plunger tube is in tension, the spring in compression. What am I missing? Maybe I haven't shot enough the cause a problem yet.....
I have considered Stainless steel billet plunger. AL would be better from the inertia/physics standpoint, but ss would be almost indestructible. At any rate, I believe there is lower hanging fruit with the air tube and shot tube combination. So that first.
It may also be that your (and others) spring upgrade (without preload spacers) would be better. More contemplation required.
Are you asking about ordering tubing from England or my version of finished air tubes?
I'm very curious is the displacement of the 499 and the RR are the same. If they are, you have shown that getting all the air down the shot tube, behind the bb is the answer. The solution is getting the bb feed port closed off as quickly and efficiently as possible. I looked into the port from on top, it looks like the air tube could be about 1/16" longer without obstructing the bb feed. Increasing the length and fitting the shot tube better, should increase the efficiency a bit. Maybe just enough to make 400+.....
This should be a full time job!
As long as the plunger legs are exactly parallel and the spring imparts its load directly in line w/the tube, the deflection wouldn't be significant. In practice though, I'm seeing enough deflection that the legs are able to contact the spring ID. But again- the thin walled tubing I'm using for the preload spacer could be the culprit, allowing the spring to cant to the side because the tubing really doesn't offer a level surface for the spring to seat on. So Imma lose the tubing and see what transpires.
Ideally, I have little doubt using no spacers would be better. But unless/until we come up w/an aftermarket higher rate spring, we're stuck w/spacers of some sort.
Re the air tube tubing, I was wanting the link to the online store, basically. I don't want to impose on you to supply it to me unless it was surplus to your needs and I could pay your full cost for it, inc. shipping. In other words, not wanting to be a mooch! lol
Ideally, I have little doubt using no spacers would be better. But unless/until we come up w/an aftermarket higher rate spring, we're stuck w/spacers of some sort.
Re the air tube tubing, I was wanting the link to the online store, basically. I don't want to impose on you to supply it to me unless it was surplus to your needs and I could pay your full cost for it, inc. shipping. In other words, not wanting to be a mooch! lol
My PC wouldnt even give readings with our overhead lights at work.
flightsimmer
Member
My instruction manual specifically says not to use fluorescent lights because they pulse.
You can sometimes see this in older tubes and because of this it will give false results.
Also, BB's are much smaller than most bullets and are harder to see the light variation as they pass over the screens.
You can sometimes see this in older tubes and because of this it will give false results.
Also, BB's are much smaller than most bullets and are harder to see the light variation as they pass over the screens.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/361001334642
Here's the eBay listing.
In a past career, I was manufacturing engineer. I keep looking at ways to make these parts on some scale. Probably a stupid idea. At any rate. I had a plan to make a few, send you a couple, If LW wants one, sort of as a thx for your respective contributions and input. I respect your position on "mooching"!
Cobalt. I went back and reviewed, again, your 499 path. It seems that your results suggest that mv has much to do with getting air down the tube without loss. Very interesting results!
Sorry for the delay in response! Thx for the input!
