Putting a little more power in a $15.00 Daisy

Ok, I'll try the copper air tube fabrication since I have the copper and see how it goes. Couple other points I'd like to ask about:
  • Is the piston warping on the edge (1) a problem? I'm not sure if, once the spring releases, that edge expands to fully seal?
    1.jpg
  • In the image below, I have this piece of solid tube that sits snugly inside the pullback. It is longer than the wooden dowel used to reinforce the legs. Is there any reason I should trim mine down? Is that gap (2) enough room, or will some component need more clearance between the legs?
    2.jpg
  • And lastly, Am I comprehending the action correctly here (3). When cocked, the spring is compressed, the piston and air tube are drawn back far enough for a single bb to fall into the barrel (but not so far that the air tube actually leaves the barrel). I assume the air tube remains seated at the very end of the barrel so when fired, the air tube hits the bb while the piston also applies additional force by compressing the air in front of it and sends that through the little notch in the air tube accelerating the bb fully.
    3.jpg
Thanks for the info!
 
First, #3 is correctly stated as to how the air tube remains in the shot tube when the action is cocked. It acts as a block to prevent addirional BBs from trying to enter the shot tube.

#1 I see the condition of that piston a problem. I don't think there's enough force generated from firing to re-expand the 'skirt' (actually looks like the whole piston has become distorted). I would strongly advise you to just go ahead and replace it- they're not available separately, so I buy part number 169379-000 SHOT TUBE ASSEMBLY, $4.00. That gives you the piston and the special pin used with the new style air tube (it has flats, the round old style pins will not fit the new air tube). The spring and plunger tube are surplus.

#2 I like how you think- this was a route I tried early on when I noticed the plunger tube rails deflecting as the spring preload went up. Sadly, it Is not going to work, at least not as depicted. The spring anchor needs a little more than 2" of room to slide between the sides of the plunger tube when the gun is cocked, plus the end of the cocking lever needs to pass up through the legs when the gun is cocked so these two things use up about the whole available area. And I found using anything on the "sear" end of the plunger tube won't work because of the lever travel path. Take a minute and look at the cutaway below. It helps visualize the workings. Also the attached photos show a dowel that gives enough room to work.

In the end, hinz57's idea of using an angled spacer that corrects the spring flex when cocked precludes the use of reinforcements. Something to consider.

View attachment 799579
 
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First, #3 is correctly stated as to how the air tube remains in the shot tube when the action is cocked. It acts as a block to prevent addirional BBs from trying to enter the shot tube.

#1 I see the condition of that piston a problem. I don't think there's enough force generated from firing to re-expand the 'skirt' (actually looks like the whole piston has become distorted). I would strongly advise you to just go ahead and replace it- they're not available separately, so I buy part number 169379-000 SHOT TUBE ASSEMBLY, $4.00. That gives you the piston and the special pin used with the new style air tube (it has flats, the round old style pins will not fit the new air tube). The spring and plunger tube are surplus.

#2 I like how you think- this was a route I tried early on when I noticed the plunger tube rails deflecting as the spring preload went up. Sadly, it Is not going to work, at least not as depicted. The spring anchor needs a little more than 2" of room to slide between the sides of the plunger tube when the gun is cocked, plus the end of the cocking lever needs to pass up through the legs when the gun is cocked so these two things use up about the whole available area. And I found using anything on the "sear" end of the plunger tube won't work because of the lever travel path. Take a minute and look at the cutaway below. It helps visualize the workings. Also the attached photos show a dowel that gives enough room to work.

In the end, hinz57's idea of using an angled spacer that corrects the spring flex when cocked precludes the use of reinforcements. Something to consider.

View attachment 799579

Ah, I see what you mean. The cocking lever requires that space be open to accommodate the arc of drawing the plunger back. I'll order a new piston, and I'll definitely notch out the copper spacer to make the spring sit nice and parallel. Thanks!
 
I was curious why the skirt of the piston would warp like that, so I looked down the inside of the barrel (plunger side) to find what appears to be a warped inner metal wall? The metal wall matches the indents on the piston and it almost seems like it was designed to be there. It's aligned perfectly parallel with the bottom of the tube... and I can't see how it would buckle like that while the rest of the seam remains perfectly snug... I took off the forestock to find two dimples were pounded in (I guess?) This Daisy is a model 96. Is it supposed to be like this, or is this the weirdest sabotage of another kids rifle some 30+ years ago?
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The dimples are where the barrel shroud was 'staked' to hold the barrel seal in position. Looks like on yours they are somewhat misplaced, they shouldn't be that far down where they affect the piston. Many times I've pulled barrel seals from old guns that look just like that.

DO NOT order the plunger assembly I listed above. I had thought you were working on a Red Ryder. The wide frame guns use the same barrel seal and piston as the Model 25. Which is a good thing because the slightly larger diameter barrel seal used in the RR, etc. isn't still available from Daisy.

These are the parts you need:

130225-100 Plunger head $1.50 each
130126-100 Barrel seal $1.00 each

If you need an air tube:
150272-100 Air Tube $1.50 each
Has to be used with this pin:
132938-000 Plunger Pin $0.050 each
 
See the thread linked to below for a tip on making reassembly easier by giving the compressor legs something better than the edge of the spacer to locate on: https://www.thehighroad.org/index.p...-power-in-a-15-00-daisy.807316/#post-10323237.

In your photo, what's that just above the cocking lever?
That is a random rubber washer from my spare parts box for pneumatic builds. (It's not going on the Daisy, I promise) I've built pneumatic guns after researching the forums over on spudfiles webpage. Not the PVC, hairspray-ignited, potato propellers, but a copper "pirate" pistol, a long rifle that I etched with the name "Peacebreaker" onto its side, and most recently a small, oddball design I reference as a "snipe-stick". It gets pumped to 500 lbs of pressure and shoots 1/4" steel ball bearings. Looks like a steampunk blowgun in a way. haha.

Thanks for the parts list, but I can not find where to order these online.:thumbdown: Daisy's website doesn't have a parts page that I saw, and most searches take me to Ebay stores, or a gunshop that has a few things for Daisy. Where is the magic portal? :)
 
On a tip I was able to get a quote on replacement Daisy lever action BB gun springs. These are about the same spring rate as the Cowboy spring that gave me 330 fps from an early Model 104 with the 1-piece steel trigger. Cost depends on the quantity ordered, I suspect the cost would be between $10 and $12 each.

I'm still weighing the practicality of making this purchase; if anyone reads this who would be interested in getting one or more for themselves, please PM me and I'll give what details I currently have.

Hello Cobalt,
I have read this entire thread! Some parts several times! Very impressed with your findings. I am new to the forum and couldn't pm you, however I would be interested in purchasing on or more of those springs. Tore my RR apart today drilled air tube. Didn't have anything to preload spring so put it back together. Not sure if there was any gain, maybe slight. After reading all of the post it apears that a lot of the magic is certainly in the shot tube of the 25 and 499. I was wonder also if the 499 operates so well without no air tube, if eliminating the air tube on the rr would increase mv. I see that it may or does prevent double feeds? As I read these post I just kept asking why not try testing with out the air tube. Would be curious if any gains would be made. It appeared that Heinz was also heading down the same road, but never tested it. Thanks again for your research. Now I want a 499 w RR spring. Lol.
Thanks,
Al
 
Hi Al, glad you found us!

I haven't made an order for any springs yet but if do it will be reported here for sure.

Hinz did some work in the area of drilling the air tube vs. spring preload and the takeaway from that was, the increased potential airflow from a drilled tube needs the extra pressure from a preloaded spring to work best. It is rather amazing (or an incredible stroke of luck) how balanced the powerplant is, as Daisy designed it! Truly a clever bit of engineering worthy of respect, IMHO.

The model 25 shot tube owes its efficiency to less pressure losses, at least that's my thought. And even more so on the 499, which is as pressure tight as anything going, putting all the work into pushing a BB out the shot tube rather than leaking willy-nilly from various orifices. The new production 25 uses a spring that's much weaker than the Red Ryder spring. If you replaced the RR spring w/a 25, you'd see maybe 230-240 fps on a 270 fps baseline, based on my guesstimation. So the velocity has to be coming from somewhere, and the shot tube ID as measured by hinz57 isn't any better on the 25 than the RR. The 499, besides being pressure conserving has a smaller shot tube ID that helps along w/the other things and that's why I got such a profound MV increase w/the RR spring. That experiment still blows me away and was one of those moments one seldom gets when 'shooting in the dark' so to speak- real satisfaction.

The thing about getting rid of the air tube is, it's an integral part of the repeating action of the guns. It does prevent rampant double feeds/jams and it blocks off the places where pressure loss would occur if you just removed it w/no other changes. If you did find a way to remove the air tube, you would be back to basically a single shot muzzle loader. Well, unless you engineered a totally different way to make it a repeater. I believe hinz57 had the chops to pull something like that off, me, not so much! ha ha. But at that point, the 499 already exists and is a proven design w/Daisy parts support to boot. So it would be like reinventing the wheel, and a a finely crafted wheel at that!

One suggestion for a spring preload spacer- next time you have your gun apart, take the bare plunger tube w/spring removed down to your Ace hardware store and look through their selections of hardware. In there somewhere they have bushings and such that if you're lucky will be in stock. Remember the ID should slide over the plunger tube easily and the OD should be right at 13/16 so it'll clear the inside of the receiver. I would go w/1/2" to 5/8" max. There's room for more but things start getting too stressed for my liking much beyond that. I still have guns that use copper water tubing for spacers, again none more than 5?8" so that's another option. Maybe PVC pipe could be used but I've not tried so not sure if the ID/OD are compatible.

Good luck and keep us posted!
 
Cobalt,
Thank you for the reply! Ok tore down the gun again today and opened up hole on the side of the airtube and attempted to drill Id to an 1/8th of and inch which I did no problem until put the very top of the bit in the drill to reach the end as it was a bit too short and it came out of drill and stuck in air tube. The rest was history. So while I was doing this I came to the realization that the air tube is actually a valve closing off the bb feed port as the piston is forcing air in to the barrel. So tighter clearances would prevent the air escaping the bb feed port and force a more air down the barrel. This I believe that is why the 499 is so efficient with the RR spring. I think this all has been said before by yourself and Heinz, but It wasn't 100% clear in my mind. Will have to get another air tube, and fabricate a better spring piston removal tool. What a pain in the arse reinstalling into gun! Now I see what you mean about the the spring rod , shaft or legs (i cant remember the proper name of the part) as being the weak link. That could actually be a solid rod if the spring was anchored to the gun by two points out side the shaft forking over the shaft in between the coils instead of one going between the "legs" thru the center of spring. Of course you would still have to have the same setup on ends so that it would cock and release properly. Now the one thing i dont understand is how the barrel is removed on the new style RR. Do you just pop out plastic tip on of barrel shroud , kinda like the old twist out styles and pull out or is it pushed out the front or rear of gun? Or threaded in like the 25?
Thanks-
Al
 
Sorry to hear about your air tube/drill bit dilemma. Check your PMs.

On the spring compressor, I strongly advise anyone who has their plunger assembly apart to install a thin washer having a 13/16" OD and 1/2" nominal ID (it needs to slide easily over the plunger tube). That will give the legs of your tool something to get ahold of. This makes the whole op so very much easier!

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Interesting idea about the spring anchor being outboard of the spring... I'll need to give that some thought. Thanks!
 
Ok, RR is put back together with modified tube. I installed a 11/16 spacer and 1/16 washer. So actual spacer would be 3/4 in. Initially it felt like it was binding slightly when cocked. After about 20 shots it the gun became harder to cock. I then liberally oiled the plunger and spring. The gun became easy to cock. Put about 50 more bbs thru it and it seemed to loosen up and power picked up. Nearly penetrating a soup can and one bb stuck in a 2x6. Have my sons new stock RR that seemed to shoot a bit more snappier before I modified mine to compare to. My RR definitely has more power. I'll try and upload a pic of modded plunger. I would have liked to be at a 1/2 spacer- that may be the sweet spot for preload for the RR. I only went with 11/16 cause I got tired of grinding, and stopped there. I'll continue to put bbs thru it. I think the new spacer and washer will wear in. Im very happy with results and to have my RR up and working again. I think I will leave it as it is and work on gettin a 499 and mod that. Thanks Colbalt for all your help. As I put bbs thru the RR will update.
 
What I worry about when using that much spacer is the plastic trigger module. At one point one of my over-preloaded RRs decided to quit cocking- the trigger wouldn't catch ahold of the plunger. I reduced the spacer and function returned to normal. Hinz actually had a trigger come apart- totally ruined it. I believe the main problem w/using that much spacer is caused by the way the end of the spring deflects when the gun is cocked. The spacer hinz made to correct the angle of the spring when cocked has helped a lot in the gun I have it in. Some of the problem may be the spacer dragging on the plunger tube. I think if I make more spacers I'll try something like PVC, delrin or nylon.

The deflection I'm talking about can be seen in the cutaway RR that was done by Grant Stace from NZ. He's a machinist par excellence and I'm proud to say I have several of his parts on my Crosman 22xx guns. The complete set of photos ogf the cutaway are here: https://www.tapatalk.com/groups/gra...ctioned-daisy-1938b-redryder-t3778.html#p8622
 

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I agree the plastic trigger is a weakness, also the reciever. The metal used is extremely thin. I have shot another 75 bbs + - this afternoon. The gun seems to be holding up mechanically and cocking and shooting seems smooth. I've been looking at the receiver and was thinking of adding some side plates or upside down u shaped cover to slip over the top and sides of the reciever for rigidity. Also I think a metal cocking lever should be added. The construction of the RR 1938b is just seems weak. Is the consruction of the 499 beefier? Im gonna look at the trigger and see if there is a solution.
 
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Colbalt,
And yes the deflection was probably the culprit in the binding when cocking. I almost grabbed a nylon bushing/ spacer today but went with steel. I used a lot of oil which seemed to do the trick. Also a little spring compression trick, there is the two holes which is used to lock the spring on the pluger rod, with the little steel pin, below them holes on shaft is a single hole. I was able to stick a screwdriver between the coils in the hole. I then rotated the spring which threaded it way down the shaft and caused spring to compress. It worked very easy even after preloaded.
 
That's a neat trick! Thanks, I'll give it a try. BTW I meant to mention your carving fork spring compressor, that looks like it would work great. Any idea of the brand and cost- looks expensive...
 
Lol - Cooks collection JC Pennys. I widdled it down a bit and dremeled the center. It still needs work. Was also using it a spring compresser to get spring off of shaft. A little dangerous tho. Then I figured out the other method. Dont know the cost, came with knife set. Wife hasn't noticed yet. I guess the point on the receiver reinforcement is that the RR structurally is probably at its limit after a few mods. Is the 499 built with heavier guage metal? I had a 95 when I was a kid, but can't remember. Wish I still had it.
 
Shot with modified RR
Vegi can. Wont go thru a med sized Campbell's soup can. 20180929_174930.jpg
 
Those shots were at 20-25 ft away. Was gonna try soup can at closer range but neighbor was outside so i figured i better stop.
 
Your modified gun is packing a wallop!! I'll have to shoot a couple cans with my modded guns. One is at 320 fps, one at 345 fps and a third is at 375 fps and the 499/RR spring is 420'ish fps. That way you'll have an idea of your MV.
 
Yes that would be great. Also are you noticing any power increases the more you shoot on any of the modded guns?
 
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