Putting a little more power in a $15.00 Daisy
Okay, judging by what I'm seeing I'd say your gun is at 320-330 fps. That's what it takes to split a steel can bottom (maybe less). And my experience seems to agree w/the 400 fps the gun you have chrony info for- that's about what's needed to fully pierce one. But can thickness vary, so there's that, too.
A Buck makes a decent shooter with a RR stock. The downside is no adjustable rear sight, but that can be fixed by adding the adjustable blade like I showed earlier. The hole needs to be made larger and a washer used under the screw head so there's elevation plus windage adjustment.
A Buck makes a decent shooter with a RR stock. The downside is no adjustable rear sight, but that can be fixed by adding the adjustable blade like I showed earlier. The hole needs to be made larger and a washer used under the screw head so there's elevation plus windage adjustment.
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Al705
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Your pics just came thru. That is a beauty. I just watched a couple of vids and the buck seemed to have some punch to it. I went back and watched a chronyed buck that was coming in at 265ish. So I may have made an assumption, however I think I'll give it try. I like the chief AJ stock but cant justify the 30$ I think im gonna make one out of pine for starters. I have an old 101? I think with a plastic stock, that I was gonna put my stock on. But I think I'd rather basturdize the chinese made daisys and leave the others as they are unless damaged.
I was afraid that may be the case. As far as I can tell, you need to go WAY back before you get into the really hard hitting Red Ryders. Like back to the leather seal days, pre mid-'50s. My 1940/'41 still amazes me that it can perform so well- I'd love to have a dozen of those OEM springs!
Al705
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In comparison, I have a renewed respect for the current RR springs. I'll be modding this gun's spring as well. Ill post a pic of old spring as soon as I take apart. I could see spring thru oiler hole and it appeared to be a smaller guage spring wire. I have be re-reading some of your post in 2017, there is a wealth of information! Not giving up yet. RR 400fps is coming. I want to test barrel lengths, and stroke. Been trying think of a way to increase stroke, increasing air volume. Even small increases could be good gains.
I'm going to say the spring in the No. 1938 will be close or same as the Daisy spring used so commonly before the guns went to China: 21 coils, 7.5” free length, 0.082” wire diameter and unground ends. This spring must have been outsourced from various vendors over the years because they vary a little in almost every way (might have one or two more/less coils, ID/OD slightly different, differing free lengths, wire diameter could vary by a thousandth, etc.), but the spring rate stayed constant. And you're spot on about the new RR spring being a good part- ground closed ends, thicker wire, more spring rate, just a good overall spring. I just wish it was made with 0.095" wire.
One thing to remember about stroke length- the position of the air tube on the "over stroke" is important to the repeater function. The over stroke is when the lever has actually passed the point where the trigger would catch the sear, allowing the gun to shoot. The over stroke is important because it's where the AT has been pulled past the feed port in the shot tube allowing a BB to feed. Depending on how the stroke is increased this may or may not matter, but it's something that's easily overlooked so I thought I'd mention it.
One thing to remember about stroke length- the position of the air tube on the "over stroke" is important to the repeater function. The over stroke is when the lever has actually passed the point where the trigger would catch the sear, allowing the gun to shoot. The over stroke is important because it's where the AT has been pulled past the feed port in the shot tube allowing a BB to feed. Depending on how the stroke is increased this may or may not matter, but it's something that's easily overlooked so I thought I'd mention it.
Al705
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Yes, I had thought of your point that the plunger space at end is maxed out when released, thus the stroke would have to be gained on by moving the sear catch or the part at the end of plunger foward. Even thought of installing it upside down, which would give you almost an 1/8 of inch, however angle would be opposite and would not catch the sear. I also was thinking about modifing old style trigger and moving the sear groove/notch back on trigger or making an old style trigger out of flat stock steel. The cocking lever may or may not have enough leverag to pull plunger back another 1/8 inch or a little metal could be added on steel lever then reshshaped. Could be done with welder. I used to fab brackets at truck shop, wouldn't be too hard. I think when plunger rod dropps into sear groove this is what stops lever from going back. These mods would probably be easier on old style trigger setup, unless old one peice trigger could be put in new style gun. Also thought of moving trigger back a 1/8 in on gun. Don't know if any of this is possible, but wheels are turning. And yes I'd like to have a stash of them old springs as well.
I agree- the new plastic trigger is not well suited to use in a highly stresses powerplant. I had a modified gun that the new plastic trigger quit resetting when the gun was cocked and Hinz57 blew one up, so that was all I needed to see.
The old trigger has a different screw hole/pivot position than the hole for the plastic trigger module would provide, so the old trigger isn't a drop-in, but if careful measurements were made a new trigger screw hole could be drilled in the new receiver to allow the stamped steel trigger to be used. And they are on eBay often enough that supply isn't an issue.
I'm currently using the wide frame guns w/steel triggers to hop up but the RR size frame w/steel trigger works as well in my experience. The one I'm currently working on (hasn't been mentioned before now) uses a model 99 metal trigger module (left, below)- it's the trigger the current model 499B trigger was modeled after, except the 99 trigger is all metal where the 499B has plastic components (although they're unstressed). The 99 trigger gives a nice smooth 2 stage pull with a decent let-off, but its durability is an unknown.
The old trigger has a different screw hole/pivot position than the hole for the plastic trigger module would provide, so the old trigger isn't a drop-in, but if careful measurements were made a new trigger screw hole could be drilled in the new receiver to allow the stamped steel trigger to be used. And they are on eBay often enough that supply isn't an issue.
I'm currently using the wide frame guns w/steel triggers to hop up but the RR size frame w/steel trigger works as well in my experience. The one I'm currently working on (hasn't been mentioned before now) uses a model 99 metal trigger module (left, below)- it's the trigger the current model 499B trigger was modeled after, except the 99 trigger is all metal where the 499B has plastic components (although they're unstressed). The 99 trigger gives a nice smooth 2 stage pull with a decent let-off, but its durability is an unknown.
Mauser lover
Member
Have you guys looked at getting custom springs made? Or making your own?
Just a thought...
Just a thought...
Actually, yes. A member of another forum mentioned having some springs made to replace the factory springs- I'm not sure why, Daisy sells the Red Ryder plunger assembly, spring included, for $4.00 each and I'm sure he paid more than thet, but maybe he had his reasons. Anyway, he told me about the outfit who he contracted with so I contacted them and got a quote. Bottom line is I'd have to shell out a little over $150.00 for a supply of them. I'd do t but I'm just not sure there's another 10-15 people who would want one to make it work for me. I may have mentioned this in this thread somewhere, but not sure.
Mauser lover
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I did read through this whole thread at one point... And decided to follow it, so it must have been interesting enough to hook me!
I don't actually have a Red Ryder, and never have! And might never! I just thought it was a cool thread!
And yes, $150 is a bit stiff (pun not originally intended, but accepted) for a bigger spring! But think of all the benefit!
You mentioned wishing that the spring was 0.095", is that what the older one was? How big of a spring could you do (or would you dare to try) without killing the trigger group?
I don't actually have a Red Ryder, and never have! And might never! I just thought it was a cool thread!
And yes, $150 is a bit stiff (pun not originally intended, but accepted) for a bigger spring! But think of all the benefit!
You mentioned wishing that the spring was 0.095", is that what the older one was? How big of a spring could you do (or would you dare to try) without killing the trigger group?
0.095" is what I spec'ed the spring maker and I think that's the limit of what the plastic trigger module will take on a steady diet. That turns out to be what the the version 1 Red Ryder has, too (I did not know this at the time) and I'm now thinking it's no coincidence that's also the same size spring wire they used in the odd-ball Sheridan "Cowboy" (you don't suppose they peeked at an early Red Ryder, do you? haha). And the Cowboy uses (used?) a plastic trigger functionally and materially identical to the Daisy 1938B trigger so the current production RR/Buck/1998, etc. should hold it okay but I'd want to personally test this before telling anyone to use it w/a plastic trigger. Otherwise it's GTG w/the steel trigger lever action Daisys.
Very true. I just measured how long the plunger stroke was on the 1940/'41 Number 111 Model 40 Red Ryder and it is 2.25". That's 0.25" more than the new production Red Ryder that uses the "high lever pivot". The high pivot requires less effort but more lever travel (aka lever "throw"). The 111-40 has a shorter throw but a higher cocking effort because of its low lever pivot point where the screw attaches the lever to the receiver. The longer stroke- along with the stronger spring- no doubt helps this gun produce the muzzle velocity it does. It's too bad the low pivot guns aren't as easily found as the high pivot guns, else I'd be using the basket cases for modifying.
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I just bought a model Daisy model 155. It looks pretty nice and the price was very good IMHO ($45 delivered). It's blued, not painted and it also has the high effort lever ratio like the early 111-40 Red Ryder. If it has the cast iron lever, I've scored big, and unless I miss my guess it looks like cast iron to me. I'm also hoping the spring is the "good" one and is in good condition. I have shown a spring before, from a model 95 I bought a while back and it shows what can happen to them. I'm not sure why some springs get so distorted while others seem to stay straight. Maybe it has something to do with the spring steel composition, or heat treating/stress relieving wasn't done correctly- or at all, who knows.
Anyway, this is the auction photo; it was the only one that was posted. I would have liked to have seen more photos but with the BIN price being as low as it was, I decided to throw caution to the wind and go for it.
Anyway, this is the auction photo; it was the only one that was posted. I would have liked to have seen more photos but with the BIN price being as low as it was, I decided to throw caution to the wind and go for it.
Al705
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A quarter of an inch is significant. Also the leather plunger looks to be thinner than rubber, if so that would increase volume. I have noticed there are variations in cocking lever ends, different lengths and shapes which would effect the stroke as well. Or maybe just 2 being that varient you have and newer styles. Congrats on new gun, I hope you make out better than I did. I have to get on the ball and get this 70s RR going. Also how much room is there to play with without the airtube coming out of the shot tube.
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New to this forum - I have enjoyed all the posts, looks like some real engineering going on here! I have the Marlin and RR bb guns and notice that the air tubes have a very loose fit in the shot tubes. Can they be "tinned" with silver solder to enlarge the OD, or maybe heat up the end and enlarge it a bit. Can this stop air loss behind the bb?
I can't say because I've never tried this. I'd be very interested in hearing the results!
I went ahead and ordered custom springs for the Daisys. They will work on most anything that uses a lever to cock with. They have closed and square ground ends, are heat treated and stress relieved. I installed one in a fresh 1938B Red Ryder and with no other changes at all- no enlarged air tube, no preload spacer, nothing- it made 340 fps and I could not be happier! If anyone is interested, they will be $12.00 each. Email me at: cobalt327 at Hotmail dot com
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