Putting a little more power in a $15.00 Daisy

Now that you have a base line with the 105/499, could you try it with the modified abutment? Then with your spring? That could give a very good suggestion if my current thinking is reasonable or completely “missing the target”.

Also could you screw the 499 shot tube assy into the abutment, then lay it in position next to the 1938b shroud, and post a pic of that. I’d like to see where the barrel shroud would need to be modified. I have some damaged barrel shrouds to modify.
No problem, I'll get these things done sometime today.

Idle thought #1
Friction is certainly a thing. I haven’t addressed it mostly because it seems to be the variable that is most consistent. And perhaps the most difficult to affect beyond cleanliness, bore polish, and lubrication. Drilling holes will have some effect. Not really clear on that path yet. There are arguments going on in my head about many small holes vs a few larger holes. And then where to end them before the not drilled area? Any opinions?

I think another important factor is that the bb stays on its seat till the piston clears the holes.
That is likely a factor of the strength of the magnetic field vs letting the displaced air out of the vent holes.
I think small holes would wear the piston less than big holes while still serving the purpose.

What about honing the first part of the compression chamber (CC) oversize? That could lessen friction to help piston velocity and holes could also be added to vent pressure and/or delay positive air displacement to increase dwell time of the BB on the magnet, however one looks at it.

I’m quite excited by these possibilities! Thx again to Mauser lover for this new path of development!
Here, here! Breathes new life into the project, so thanks Mauser lover!

Idle thought #2
I haven’t read the GTA threads yet, but am very interested! Real data would be very useful.

Someone had posted a reference to the 1938 RR of the early 70’s. Its kind of a hybrid machine. I have a very rough one that I plan on modifying significantly. I think it may have the most potential of the lever actions for a very nice repeater with a high mv. Not sure that it would ever be a 400fps shooter but close. If anyone is interested, I will be happy to discuss that project. The perforated air chamber may be called for. That, in my mind, may be a real game changer!

There is also the relationship of a perforated air chamber and the air tube displacing the bb prematurely. A delicate balance to be sure!
We may never have the type of data that's generated by the instruments used there but eventually we may be able to 'break the code', so to speak.

The "No. 1938 Red Ryder Carbine" made 1972- '79 is a neat gun for sure. It is close to the original 111-40 w/the exception of lever appearance, narrow rear sight notch, lighter rate spring and higher lever pivot. The lever appearance is a moot point, the sight notch change is a minor improvement, decline or a wash depending on who you ask, the spring being weaker follows the trend of the times. But the easier cocking effort from the change in the lever pivot/ratio is a significant improvement to my way of thinking. Sure, the lever throw is longer but the reduced effort gives a better feel.

Interesting times, folks!
 
Read about this some, abt a year back...

I used a long-shanked 3/32” drill to enlarge the airtube ID and saw an increase.

Memory is shaky here, but I believe a fellow had a standard RR pushing 400 fps with this type mod.
 
I'm excited t see what the outcome will be of giving the piston a running start!

Just an idle thought, devil's advocate style: it seems that if there's no actual air compression occurring, the piston acceleration would be slowed more by friction between it and the walls of the compression chamber than it would from air stacking up between the abutment and piston, especially at the very beginning of the stroke when the most area is in front of the piston, no? If that were the case, it would then seem to me that the most benefit from vent holes would come from there being less friction against the piston during the first part of the power stroke, and not from the holes venting "pressure".

I did think of this, but had forgotten about the lack of real compression, so I was thinking that compression was more important than friction. I think the lack of compression thing was mentioned earlier in the thread. Somewhere. If we are going to be focusing on lessening friction, having rails instead of perforated holes (I think) would help it not wear out as fast, and would also vent any minimal compression that is happening. Path of least resistance thing.

Obviously all inside surfaces will need to be deburred and the interior polished. If you are going to be honing the inside to a bigger size, make sure there is a taper after your acceleration space to re-center the plunger if necessary.

Often, airsoft guns will have the BB retained by a soft, rubber-like retainer thingy. Obviously, plastic BBs are not magnetic. Perhaps we can hold the BB tighter if we try that with a steel BB?

I told y'all that I'd come up with a good idea eventually!
 
Mouser lover, at this point no one really knows what has the most effect, friction or pressure venting or a combination of both. One thing I see over and over is that these Daisys do not always behave like I think they will- they'll throw a curve at any time! That said, I do think there could be gains here that had been previously overlooked.

No problem, I'll get these things done sometime today.
Won't be able to concentrate on this project today but as soon as I'm able to, I will.
 
Cobalt, no problem. Whenever is convenient.

I did disassemble the1998 today. I found a 1-1/8” preload spacer. Earlier I said 7/8”. Hopefully tomorrow I will be able to reassemble and test!
 
Got the abutments swapped out, it's at 393 fps average for 10 shots after taking a few shots to seat the modified abutment and to let it settle in some. The ES was okay, high was 400 fps, low was 389 fps.

I bored out the funnel to remove the built in shot tube stop that prevented the funnel from sliding past the knurling on the shot tube. The barrel shroud isn't large enough to allow the funnel to seat against the end of the shroud the way it does in a 499 so I left it adjusted out enough that it wasn't causing the shroud to spread at the seam on the bottom. No front sight along with the loose fit of the shot tube means no accuracy testing at this stage. I'll check accuracy after the funnel OD has been taken down a little so it fits inside the shroud as it should. But before that I want to run a string using the high performance spring. I'm not going to be disappointed if the spring doesn't increase the MV substantially because it now seems obvious there are other things at work here. It would be great to have a precise 499 barrel about 12" long to play with but realistically, before drilling/venting the compression chamber I'm thinking about using a smoothbore Daisy 880 shot tube, threaded to fit the 499 abutment. The 880 shot tube is ~20" long- way longer than needed and the ID is a compromise for shooting pellets and BBs, so it's far from being as good as a 499 shot tube but it might be good enough to tell us what role length plays.

499-105 FUNNEL ADJUSTED A-B.jpg
 
I cleaned the 880 smoothbore barrel today. When I put a BB in it at about the halfway point, then looked through the bore at a light, I could see a ring of light almost 2/3 of the way around the BB. It takes a BB longer to fall the length of the 499 shot tube (9") than it does for a BB to drop 20" in the 880 barrel with the open end of the barrels sealed tightly! So I slugged it using thermoset plastic (softens when heated, hardens when cooled). I rolled it up while it was soft and fed it into the muzzle end then held my thumb over the end and tamped it from the breech end using a .177 cotton mop. After cooling I measured it, the result is 0.181" ID.

I'm open for thoughts on whether the 880 barrel is worth pursuing. I have a die on hand to thread it, but if the consensus is that the ID is too large to make the test valid, then I'm open to other suggestions.

880 smoothbore barrel 0.181 at muzzle A.jpg
 
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6E33A2E8-F305-407B-8BD2-44B298C3B03F.jpeg
Got the abutments swapped out, it's at 393 fps average for 10 shots after taking a few shots to seat the modified abutment and to let it settle in some. The ES was okay, high was 400 fps, low was 389 fps.

I bored out the funnel to remove the built in shot tube stop that prevented the funnel from sliding past the knurling on the shot tube. The barrel shroud isn't large enough to allow the funnel to seat against the end of the shroud the way it does in a 499 so I left it adjusted out enough that it wasn't causing the shroud to spread at the seam on the bottom. No front sight along with the loose fit of the shot tube means no accuracy testing at this stage. I'll check accuracy after the funnel OD has been taken down a little so it fits inside the shroud as it should. But before that I want to run a string using the high performance spring. I'm not going to be disappointed if the spring doesn't increase the MV substantially because it now seems obvious there are other things at work here. It would be great to have a precise 499 barrel about 12" long to play with but realistically, before drilling/venting the compression chamber I'm thinking about using a smoothbore Daisy 880 shot tube, threaded to fit the 499 abutment. The 880 shot tube is ~20" long- way longer than needed and the ID is a compromise for shooting pellets and BBs, so it's far from being as good as a 499 shot tube but it might be good enough to tell us what role length plays.

View attachment 824289
Why do you thing that there is such a difference in mv between the 499 and the 105/499? Is it possible that the RR sting you used it basically weaker? I’ve seen quite a variation in RR springs.

Here’s my “410” spring next to your spring. The “410” spring was the longest out of all the springs I have. When I compressed your spring with the shortest angle corrected spacer I have “5/8”, it was significantly harder than my spring with 1-1/8” spacer.
 
Just had a discussion with Mike about some of the ideas. He agrees with me that the modified abutment will need more spring + preload.

He does not agree that perforating the air chamber will help. But conceded that if all other options are explored, it might be with a try.

He likes the longer barrel idea. He suggested maybe using a looser fit shot tube with a “patch” of some nature, to achieve a better seal may prove worthwhile. He knew of some Teflon sheet available in 0.002” thick. Just some more ideas to persue.

I need to place daisy order. Who is the current rep to talk to? Is that 880 tube available to order? What parts are required to make the 105/1938b-499? I have 499 shot tube assembly’s.

Abutment, piston, what else?

Hopefully tomorrow, I can reassemble and test shoot the new spring combo!

On we go!
 
View attachment 824456
Why do you thing that there is such a difference in mv between the 499 and the 105/499? Is it possible that the RR sting you used it basically weaker? I’ve seen quite a variation in RR springs.

Here’s my “410” spring next to your spring. The “410” spring was the longest out of all the springs I have. When I compressed your spring with the shortest angle corrected spacer I have “5/8”, it was significantly harder than my spring with 1-1/8” spacer.

Cobalt special spring left. “410” spring right.
 
View attachment 824456
Why do you thing that there is such a difference in mv between the 499 and the 105/499? Is it possible that the RR sting you used it basically weaker? I’ve seen quite a variation in RR springs.
That's likely the cause. The spring and had been used previously and had been installed w/a preload spacer but I forget what size. Plus I'm now using a different chronograph that the CE Pro Digital I had at first. The new one is a small Chinese number that costs $30.00 but works well for how I use it. It can be seen here: https://www.aliexpress.com/item/Fre...508.html?spm=a2g0s.9042311.0.0.d0a94c4dl6RmdX . A thread on it: https://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=151661.0 Disregard if I already posted about it.

Just had a discussion with Mike about some of the ideas. He agrees with me that the modified abutment will need more spring + preload.

He does not agree that perforating the air chamber will help. But conceded that if all other options are explored, it might be with a try.

He likes the longer barrel idea. He suggested maybe using a looser fit shot tube with a “patch” of some nature, to achieve a better seal may prove worthwhile. He knew of some Teflon sheet available in 0.002” thick. Just some more ideas to persue.
So you think the large ID 880 barrel should be tried? Probably because it's late and I'm tired but I'm not following you on the "...looser fit shot tube with a “patch” of some nature, to achieve a better seal..." or how the Teflon sheet would be used, so if possible dumb it down for me?

I will definitely be trying the HP spring and depending on the outcome might add preload to see what happens.

I need to place daisy order. Who is the current rep to talk to? Is that 880 tube available to order? What parts are required to make the 105/1938b-499? I have 499 shot tube assembly’s.

Abutment, piston, what else?

Hopefully tomorrow, I can reassemble and test shoot the new spring combo!

On we go!

Whoever answers the Daisy Customer Service phone 800-713-2479 can help. Alana has been gone for a while now but recently I have dealt successfully with Katlyn, Rose and Norma. Also there's the Daisy Customer Service/Parts Ordering email address: [email protected]. I often email my order to help prevent errors (they're looking at the part numbers I cut/paste from the parts list pdf) and to save the time of individually speaking each part number, etc. Then when they email me back I call with my CC info.

The smoothbore 880 barrels are no longer carried.

The 499 abutment, piston and the full round pins are what I used along with the complete 499 shot tube assembly. Everything else is from the gun being modified. I'd recommend using the plunger tube from whatever gun it is you're working with so there's no problem with trigger compatibility or other fitment issues. It will be a good idea to order a few spare abutment seals. And remember the open side of the abutment seal goes to the outside; the last 499 abutment I bought from Daisy had the seal installed backwards.

When you install the abutment use some grease on the seal, and it goes a lot easier if you use a dowel or other tool that has just a little smaller OD than the abutment so the tool bears on the abutment and the seal as it's being driven home. If you use a smaller diameter tool you risk having the seal come off during the installation.

I don't stake the abutment but if you want to, make sure the two dimples on the abutment OD are at the bottom. Make note of the spacing of the dimples and their position relative to where the abutment seats at the end of the compression chamber, else the staking might miss the dimples.

If you find you have to remove the abutment, manipulate it to turn the abutment backwards once it's out of the compression chamber and is into the area where the plunger assembly lives so the shot tube can be threaded into it to give you a 'handle' to help pull it out. Otherwise it can be quite frustrating to remove.
 
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That's likely the cause. The spring and had been used previously and had been installed w/a preload spacer but I forget what size. Plus I'm now using a different chronograph that the CE Pro Digital I had at first. The new one is a small Chinese number that costs $30.00 but works well for how I use it. It can be seen here: https://www.aliexpress.com/item/Fre...508.html?spm=a2g0s.9042311.0.0.d0a94c4dl6RmdX . A thread on it: https://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA/index.php?topic=151661.0 Disregard if I already posted about it.



Thanks! I read the thread, looks interesting. Leads me to ask if the 420 FPS/499 result was measured with the new chrono? I have always scratched my head a bit about my results. Recently I have met a guy that does a lot of reloading/casting, etc. He has a pro chrono as well, he offered to let me bring mine over to do some side by side comparison. When it gets warmer outside! I like that the new one sounds less particular about lighting!

So you think the large ID 880 barrel should be tried? Probably because it's late and I'm tired but I'm not following you on the "...looser fit shot tube with a “patch” of some nature, to achieve a better seal..." or how the Teflon sheet would be used, so if possible dumb it down for me?



Well.....not sure that I have enough knowledge to even dumb it down! Mike was suggesting that there may be the most to be gained by improving the bb to shot tube fit. I certainly agree that I never broke 400 till I got the 499 tube with the avanti bb’s. The “patch” heartens back to black powder/muzzle loaders. They used a patch of some nature to hold the ball in the barrel. I have 0 experience with this other than growing up watching Daniel Boone on B&V tv! The Teflon sheet could maybe be used to make a wrap for a bb to fit better in the tube and hold it in place without the magnetic field. For that to maybe work, kind of requires, a looser bb to tube fit to allow space for a wrapper around the bb. All this may make to much friction, screw up accuracy, just not work...just idle thought 3.

Also, if altering an unavailable tube from the 880 renders it useless for future use, I would say don’t do it. I was thinking about how to adapt a RR tube to the 499 abutment to get a bit more length. Nothing has leapt to mind yet.



I will definitely be trying the HP spring and depending on the outcome might add preload to see what happens.



Thinking back to a year ago when we drilled air tubes to 1/8” and opened the port a lot, mv dropped way off with the stock spring. But was still not as open as the thin wall custom air tube. I didn’t persue adding preload or changing springs to see what happened. Life/death/personal problems got in the way... I just sent you all the modified air tubes.

I think though that we are seeing the same sort of thing with the modified abutment, maybe. I still have much hope that your spring will really make a difference! It will be interesting to see the results! Also results of your 499 vs 105/499,fully modified. Same day, bbs, chrono, etc. if possible.



Whoever answers the Daisy Customer Service phone 800-713-2479 can help. Alana has been gone for a while now but recently I have dealt successfully with Katlyn, Rose and Norma. Also there's the Daisy Customer Service/Parts Ordering email address: [email protected]. I often email my order to help prevent errors (they're looking at the part numbers I cut/paste from the parts list pdf) and to save the time of individually speaking each part number, etc. Then when they email me back I call with my CC info.

The smoothbore 880 barrels are no longer carried.

The 499 abutment, piston and the full round pins are what I used along with the complete 499 shot tube assembly. Everything else is from the gun being modified. I'd recommend using the plunger tube from whatever gun it is you're working with so there's no problem with trigger compatibility or other fitment issues. It will be a good idea to order a few spare abutment seals. And remember the open side of the abutment seal goes to the outside; the last 499 abutment I bought from Daisy had the seal installed backwards.

When you install the abutment use some grease on the seal, and it goes a lot easier if you use a dowel or other tool that has just a little smaller OD than the abutment so the tool bears on the abutment and the seal as it's being driven home. If you use a smaller diameter tool you risk having the seal come off during the installation.

I don't stake the abutment but if you want to, make sure the two dimples on the abutment OD are at the bottom. Make note of the spacing of the dimples and their position relative to where the abutment seats at the end of the compression chamber, else the staking might miss the dimples.

If you find you have to remove the abutment, manipulate it to turn the abutment backwards once it's out of the compression chamber and is into the area where the plunger assembly lives so the shot tube can be threaded into it to give you a 'handle' to help pull it out. Otherwise it can be quite frustrating to remove.


Thanks for all the info!
 
Clearly my posting ability needs improvement! The previous post has several reply’s to issues in it but to read it I had to expand it. I don’t know how to insert comments in the text of someone’s previous reply.

Just not as proficient with social media as I am with shop tools.
 
Are there any other long shot tubes of sufficient o.d. to thread, or turn down the end to thread?
 
Hinz, the way you're replying is fine, there's no need to bother with the multi-quote deal. But if you wanted to try it, click the "+ Quote" on each post you want to quote in a reply like I did above. The only 'gotcha' is, you have to hit "Reply" on the last post you want to include in the multi-quote. Then follow the prompts to set them all into a reply field. Or (easiest way) just hit "Reply" to quote only the post that you are currently reading in your reply. These options are seen in the bottom right side of the posts next to the post numbers. But like I said, what you are doing works fine.

I now understand what you were getting at with the OS bore with patched BBs. Probably wouldn't work well for a daily shooter but still an interesting concept- muzzle loading single shot BB gun that uses a ram rod!

There is a Daisy smoothbore single pumpers model 35 but I've never measured one to know what it has for an ID. The OD should be same as an 880. Actually I can't think of another shot tube besides the Daisy pumpers that are smoothbore and the right OD. Crosman 760 smoothbore barrels are 0.4375" nom. and I have no way to machine one smaller. And it seems that any modern smoothbore Daisy and Crosman dual-ammo barrel is going to run larger ID than we want. That said, a different Daisy smoothbore barrel might be better than the 0.181" ID barrel I have.

Bottom line is I believe I will at least try to cut the threads on the 880 barrel and use it for testing. After seeing how the large the ID is, I'm not going to use it in an 880 anyway.
 
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All,

Here is some info that may reflect the upper limit of mv on the 1938B type BB gun.

Base line- my best daisy spring, 1-1/8” spacer, 499 shot tube, custom thinwall air tube/ reamed abutment seal, Avanti bb’s.

35 shots
Hi- 414
Lo- 404
Av- 408
Es- 13
Sd- 2

Cobalt spring, 5/8” spacer, Walmart bb’s

35 shots
Hi- 426
Lo- 404
Av- 417
Es- 22
Sd- 4

Same as above, Avanti bb’s

20 shots
Hi- 436
Lo- 419
Av- 425
Es- 17
Sd- 4

Cobalt spring, 1-1/4” spacer, Avanti bb’s

35 shots
Hi- 438
Lo- 425
Av- 429
Es- 13
Sd- 2

Also tried 1-1/2”, 1-3/8” spacers. Was unable to catch the trigger before the spring coils bound up. Don’t have a 1-5/16” combination. Will modify a spacer to get there. Not sure that another 1/16” preload would be significant. May not be able to catch the trigger either, but will give it a go one day, mostly to know what max preload is.

Thx again to Cobalt327 for all his input and investment in this project!

Thanks to all others for their ideas and input to the thread as well! Some really good thoughts that gave the inspiration for this project.

Unless someone comes up with another direction, I feel that there is very little more mv to be gained.

I will continue development of some other bits related. This includes a scope rail mount and trigger improvements.

I plan to turn my attention more to the single shot development. If anyone wants to donate a long smooth barrel of any description toward development, I will do the machine work to adapt it into the 1938/499 platform. Something longer than 12” of clean tubing would be good. I just don’t know what is available, and don’t have time to do a lot of research. Perhaps the options that cobalt mentioned earlier would be a good place to start!

Stay tuned!
 
Hinz, thank you for your latest input- you and Mauser lover have rekindled my interest and I hope the interest of others who read this thread.

You have a hot BB gun, no doubt! I see what you mean when you say the gun is maxed out. If my spring at max preload cannot do but a small amount more fps than a max preloaded stock RR spring, then the spring isn't the bottleneck. I'm thinking it will take more shot tube length same as we're starting to think may help the 499. What, if anything, that says about whether there's a significant amount of compression occurring or if the velocity is more a function of air displacement I'm not smart enough to say. But if length helps a lot, I'd tend to think the gun was behaving more like a pneumatic or even a CO2 gun than anything. But what I tend to think compared to hard fact may well be worlds apart, so take nothing from my musings except that I don't know!

I also agree the single shot platform will be the better choice for higher MV, compared to a repeater. But the repeater has a decided advantage to a plinker such as myself- carrying a separate BB supply that has to be hand loaded every shot is not convenient, even if the power is higher. But that said, I shoot my 420 fps modified 499B as often as I do my repeaters but just not for as many shots per session. I also need to recheck my 499's MV w/the new chrony- the 420 fps figure was from the CE Pro Chrono Digital that I sold recently. I'll try to post the results tomorrow.

I hope someone here can suggest a suitable smoothbore barrel for this project.
 
You guys are going to get me to spend some money!
Haha! I heard that. Look at it like this- at least these guns don't need a compressor to make them work, so might as well get your feet wet!

Delta, you have been here from the very beginning and I'd just like to say thanks for your support through the years. If not for you and other like-minded folks, this project would be much less enjoyable. So thank you, I really appreciate it!
 
New thought. Working on a way to join 2 1938B shot tubes together, to make double length barrel to test the long barrel theory. Machine a length of tubing, drill and team to od of RR shot tubes, machine the ends of the tubes so they fit together precisely, fit them into the “sleeve” , lightly hone the inside, maybe lock tight seal into the sleeve...

Instant “kind” long shot tube of a reasonable ID..... maybe even do it as a repeater.....

What say you?
 
I say heck yea! If you can pull it off that would be super. You could use the same shot tube(s) for testing in a repeater or single shot 499 buy swapping ends that fit into the abutment, assuming you were going to sleeve one end to fit the 499 abutment.

If a BB rolls freely through the siamesed tubes, could you skip honing it? Or if a mismatch was the fear, slightly 'belling' one (or both) tube's ends (like a tiny crown) where they meet might do? But I'll leave all that to you experts.
 
Haha! I heard that. Look at it like this- at least these guns don't need a compressor to make them work, so might as well get your feet wet!

Delta, you have been here from the very beginning and I'd just like to say thanks for your support through the years. If not for you and other like-minded folks, this project would be much less enjoyable. So thank you, I really appreciate it!

Your Welcome I love a good Red Ryder!
 
I NEED YOUR HELP!

Even if the MV picked up significantly, there's just no way this project will have any decent accuracy with my 880 shot tube shot tube ("shot tube" hereafter abbreviated "ST"), so at this point I'm going to hold off on using it. If you all could see what I see when I roll a BB to the center of this ST then sight through the bore at a light, you'd understand my reluctance to use it- light just pours around the BB, looks like a pebble in a culvert!

After digging around, it seems that we may do better using a Daisy model 35 "Grizzly" ST than one from an older smooth bore 880 (the 880 was a smooth bore gun from 1972 to late 1978; if the rear sight is held on with 2 screws, 90% chance it is a smooth bore). I don't really know why a model 35 ST would be any better than one from an 880, but anything has to be better than mine. And it may just be that I have a really bad example of an 880 ST- I have only seen just this one, so I'm open to a different 880 ST if it looks better than this one.

So if you can, root around in your spare parts stash and see if you have anything that may work. The OD needs to be as close to 0.300" as possible and the length needs to be at least 14" for it to make a difference (the 499 ST we have now is 9"), and longer is fine.

Not looking for any freebies here, PM me with what you have along with a price and I'll get going on this bad boy!
 
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I’ve made a bit of progress with a double length RR shot tube. Maybe this weekend will see some more progress.

If my process works well, I would consider doing a similar deal with 2 499b tubes.

After testing, if there is significant improvement , there will need to be some sort of barrel shroud extension.

There may be a need to test 3 tubes length....something over 30”.

Kind of reminds me of pictures of Kentucky muzzle loaders....

hinz57
 
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