Discussion in 'Air Guns' started by cobalt327, Jul 17, 2016.
Very nice! Thx for the info. Will have try those bb’s!
I found out that they are just a little bit smaller diameter than Daisy BBs, so i may be actually losing some compression with blow by, (maybe).Whenever i empty her out of these i am going to see how Daisys perform in it compared to the black diamonds
Great! Thx! They may be more similar to the Walmart daisy bbs. The Match grade “avanti” bbs have given me the best and most consistent results. Though there is still some variation. Wish they were more commonly available and a bit less expensive!
I’ve clearly found that the fit of the bb and tube makes a significant difference in mv.
Drum roll please! I present to you the Lothar Walther precision shot tube.
Interestingly, a Match Grade Daisy bb will Not fit through the choke. They drop in and make a slow journey to the choke end, where they jam tight. They first one, I dropped a brass rod in gently and jammed the bb tight. Took a brass drift and some taps from the choke end to get it backed out. Tried it with 5 more, none fit. In fact 2 of them barely went in at all. The Walmart daisy bbs slipped through the choke. Maybe with this tube, the Walmart bbs are the new match grade....
LW knows how to box and ship parts!
You might try the Hornady BB's. I'm not able to check the dimensions now but they are smaller than the Avanti's. They were running about .001 from one extreme to the other and generally within .0005 of being perfectly round.
I installed an .2O CAL. L.W. barrel on a Crosman 2100 and it is extremely accurate. Hoping your project turns out well for you. And thanks for letting us follow along
Hinz, about your newly acquired Anniversary model '38B, does the medallion say '1938 - 1988' or '19' on the left and '38' on the right? That walnut stock looks outstanding, plus has the logo on the left side just like an original 111-40 'Ryder. Nice! Also, next time you have it handy what's the Lot No.?
How far from the muzzle does the choke stop the Match BBs? Or to ask differently, have you measured the tube to know where the choke is located and how long it is? You and your brother would know for sure but I would think measuring the choke might be easier if done with a gauge like what I use instead of the precision pins
Cvans brings up something to look into- a while back I measured the OD of the different BBs I had on hand at the time and Umarex looks to be a good alternative. But if it turns out Daisy zinc standard BBs shoot accurately, it's all good and will cost less for ammo to boot.
I mic'd 50, ~94% average right at 0.173” diameter.
DAISY PRECISION MAX zinc plated (ordinary Walmart)
I mic'd 50:
I'll send some along w/the other thing we were talking about
Cobalt, this one has the 19 left and 38 right. Classic I think. I also have a 1938-1988 walnut. Its in very nice condition. I’ll get the numbers later.
Cobalt, never thought I’d be measuring 10ths on a BB gun project! But that’s where it went to.
You are certainly correct in the use of small hole gauges for this application. Neither of us have a set. Hadn’t had need for them, till now. I’m pretty sure I know people that have them. Not sure when I will get back over to mikes shop. He had the pin gauges. Can do a go/no go check at least.
Yesterday I roughly measured where the bb was stuck. It was about 3/8” from the end. So 0.375+0.087=0.445”, to interference fit of bb. Later I will mic a bb, drop it in and use a depth mic to get a bit more accurate. At any rate, the choke length is shorter than I thought it might be at about 7/16”. I checked the OD of the tube in several spots. Very consistent at 0.6325-0.6328”. I didn’t think to check the choke end OD. I’m curious if it’s smaller. Like maybe they roll the tube to compress the hole a bit. Oddly, the choke end it just sawed off, kind of crudely. The in end is more finished and is stamped with 4.5 and another mark. Camera didn’t focus well on the end of tube...
Kind of brings up another rabbit hole. Is it better to leave the choke alone and shoot the largest bb that will fit through it, or to hone it open just enough to use the Match bbs since they fit the rest of the tube.
I’m pretty sure the first step is the machine the in end of the tube to screw into the 499 abutment.
I decided to try another step. I thought maybe that there might still be an air displacement effect happening. So... I carved a tapered wooden plug out of a piece of pine and hammered in the end of the air tube, trimmed it off neatly and put it back in the gun. Now I really had a pool cue in there.
Mostly the bbs would just barely make it over the chrono. All I got was Err on the display. So...I believe the pool cue effect is not significant. I believe that as soon as the piston moves, the bb is never touched by the air tube.
I wouldn’t have thought 0.0001" tolerances would enter the picture either, but what’s one more curve ball, right! lol
So if I understand you correctly, the choke begins about 7/16” from the muzzle and goes all the way to the end of the tube? FWIW, the measurements you have already taken of the choke’s position are enough to satisfy my curiosity, so don’t do any more on my account. But I would like to know what the choke ID is. And I don’t understand why LW is so tight lipped about the choke diameter. It’s not like it can’t be measured by anyone who owns one of their barrels. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
It does seem counterintuitive that the ‘finished’ end is the breech end and the unfinished end the muzzle! And a lot of folks have inadvertently cut the choked end off because they assumed the finished end was the muzzle. So you’re already ahead of the game by having taken the measurements and determining which end is “up”.
If your tube is like the choked LW tubes I have had on Daisy 853s, there’s no discernible difference in the OD at the choke compared to anywhere else on the tube. If they do roll the choke- which would seem a reasonable way to go about it- they may turn the OD to remove the evidence.
If it was me, I’d first try cleaning up and crowning the muzzle end, leave the choke as-is w/o any honing and see if there’s a BB to match the bore. I’m hoping the 50 BB Umarex sample I measured is representative of their sorting process/tolerance- if it is, I think the LW tube should shoot them very well. I have some on their way to you today.
I find that very fascinating, thank you for doing this test! Finally the myth of the air tube’s pool cue effect being ~ 80 fps can be laid to rest. And for the sake of full disclosure, I am guilty of spreading this misinformation after reading it on the blog at Pyramyd Air written by Tom Gaylord, aka the Godfather of Airguns, whose word IS gospel! Due diligence is also something I believe in and tell others to practice- and because of my negligence to practice what I preach, I have been hoist by my own petard!
The thought just occurred to me that the lead shot currently made has a smaller diameter than Daisy match BBs, so maybe these LW tubes are designed with lead shot in mind. I'm going to message them to see what they have to say in that regard, and to see if they have a recommendation for ammo.
Update on LW tube. My custom air tubes mic at 0.1723-0.1725”. On the muzzle end it is a very nice slip fit. Virtually no play. On the breech end, thx for help with terminology, there is a bit of play. I got worried that the custom air tubes wouldn’t fit, but at least that’s not an issue!
The od of the tube is 0.6315 at muzzle. So 0.001” smaller.
I did another cleaning of the tube. Most avanti bbs stop from 1/4”-3/8” from end. A couple have passed through with a bit of help.
Bbs ranged from 0.1731-0.1738”. Small sampling. Avanti bbs.
So just a tiny bit of honing would probably make a fit. Best possible. Not going to do that yet.
So possibly sorting the Avanti Match BBs will allow them to be used after all. I'd still like to see what you thought of the fit of the Umarex BBs. I'll be kicking myself for having brought up this LW thing in the first place if they tell us the tube is designed for pellets! But I can't think of a reason for a smoothbore pellet barrel, I don't believe there's any target competition that requires one, but I'll search to see if I can find out anything on that.
ETA- the 0.001" smaller muzzle may well be the choke showing itself; I can't imagine it being any tighter than that.
I did roll a few Walmart daisy bbs through. Most went on out. When one stopped. I removed to check dia. 0.1728 is snug. Under that they go through. Over that very much you back them out. Varying diameters stop at different distances from the end, so it must taper a bit. 7/16” to center of bb from the end of muzzle is the farthest the choke effect happens. All match grade get to about 7/16”. A few go through.
I see no reason for concern. I’m glad you found these tubes. I think it will answer the question of what can you achieve with a $15 daisy. I’m not keeping track, but I think I’m approaching a number larger than I wish to contemplate! But now I have a large collection of daisy stuff! It has the potential to keep me occupied for a good time to come. I’m grateful!
I don't know what I've spent but I know you're in even deeper! And I don't think it would be wise to know- at least this way should swmbo ever ask, the honest answer is "I really don't know". But for me (and I'm sure you're with me on this) the amount of just plain FUN that this has been along with having met some truly outstanding folks makes it a small enough price to pay! But that all said, too many hits like the LW tube could get painful...
Keep in mind you will spend a lot more money to go fishing and you don't need a license to shoot a Daisy.
If it were me and the choke becomes an issue I would remove it and recrown the barrel.
Very true! I’m pretty sure a bass boat would add a bit!
Removing the choke is simple. But you only get to do it once. I can get a reamer at 0.173,0.1735,0.174,0.1745, etc. just have to decide which size, or only use bbs that fit.
First step is to machine the breech end to screw into a 499 abutment. Then test with bbs that drop in. Then will be able to decide if reaming is worth it. I really like the idea of using the largest bb possible, to achieve the least air blow by.
It's been a long time since running into a project that's as interesting to follow as this one. Really looking forward to seeing some results.
Hinz, the key to this might end up being what you have already suggested: a slight hone to allow Daisy Match BBs to pass through the choke. The way I see it, as long as the last thing the BB 'sees' before exiting the tube is a tight bore w/o being so tight that hard contact was made, the choke will still function as a choke. Obviously, with lead projectiles contact is expected.
BTW, the first photo leaves no doubt where the tube was made!
I just heard from Geo at Gateway to Airguns forum. He's built and just tested a Daisy 880 that uses a single 499 shot tube. He shortened the barrel shroud on it and plans are being laid for a LDC for it. His indoor accuracy is shown below; the group measures 0.217" c/c, was shot at 8 yards with 3 pumps. Outdoors he's fighting windy conditions but still managed to do 0.75" at 10 yards with 5 pumps. He reports that 5 pumps "will reliably penetrate both sides of a metal paint can at 10 yards", so it's got some power!
Geo does 3-D printing and sells a killer LDC for the 880 for a very reasonable price, give him a message if you're interested.
Latest update from Geo on his 880/499 single tube hybrid:
"I reinstalled the unmodified 499 barrel and topped it off with a Field Sport red dot to do some more outside testing in between wind gusts.
"With 4 pumps, averaging 477 fps, it shoots 1" groups offhand out to 10 yards with no hopup. This power level and distance will put a BB through one side of a metal paint can and leave a good dent on the other side. At 25 to 30 yards, you can shoot soda cans till the sun goes down. In its current form, it is like the BB gun I dreamed of having as a boy. Out to 10 yards, I wouldn't hesitate to shoot invasive birds, rabbits, etc.
"I wonder if a LDC will further improve accuracy, especially at higher powers.
"Looking forward to getting the proper tubing so I can hopup one of these smooth barrels. Pulling the hopup design off is going to be a good challenge. There isn't much room in there to work with, but I think there is just enough and still leave room for BBs."
1938 lot# 90006671
1938/1988 lot# 88266128
Thank you, this will go into the 1938B database.
Your 1990 Red Ryder (Lot No. 90006671) is sometimes referred to as the "Classic V2" or "Classic 2nd. Edition". It originally came with a Treasure Chest containing 3500 BBs. The Classic V1 was made in 1989 and had the same medallion and was packaged w/a reproduction of the original Red Ryder comic book.
I've mentioned Geo and the LDCs he makes but never shown them. So here is some of his work:
Front view of deluxe 880 LDC
880 with front sight LDC
880 LDC with front sight
Separate names with a comma.