Putting a little more power in a $15.00 Daisy

[Mauser lover]

I think the rifling is the biggest detriment here. Just my unqualified opinion. But I did think about it! The point of rifling is to have a part of the projectile bear against it. Meaning friction, meaning smaller numbers on your chrony.

 

[hinz57]

I was able to sneak out to the shop for about 45 minutes this evening. Big disappointment.
After hinz's success with a longer barrel I thought I'd give it a try.
Put a Crosman 2100 barrel in the lathe and threaded the end of it. It is a .177 barrel with rifling. Screwed it into the 499b and was off to the chony. What a disappointment. 342.8 fps. Ran 5 more shots all with match BB's and the results were very much the same. Then screwed the 449 barrel back in and the velocity went back up to 409 were it started out.
Four things I can see happening here. Because it is a soda straw barrel without adequate support the barrel is vibrating during the shot cycle causing the bb to rattle around as it travels down the barrel. Think tuning fork. Also the rifling could be causing problems. First because of drag and second air escaping around the BB through the rifling. Fourth the barrel bore is at least .002 larger. If all four things are happening this is never going to produce satisfactory result.
I have a couple of heavier Chinese barrels that I'm going to try next week.
This is kind of fun
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Yes, I believe you have a good understanding of what’s happening. It’s really all about the fit of the bb to the tube. After that there is a critical balance of tube length and the ability to displace the air down the tube.

Thanks for your work on this project! I, for one, am interested to see your process and results!

 

[cobalt327]

Shame that it didn't pan out very well for anyone today- I blew out the abutment in my pet #1 Red Ryder. So that makes three, now maybe we're past all that and can get back on the road to more successes!

 

[hinz57]

Change of pace!

Lever mystery.

Top- current 1938B Metal

Middle- What’s it fit mystery?

Bottom- 1938 RR

 

[cobalt327]

The middle lever fits guns that have the lower lever pivot point. An example is the No. 111 Model 40 Red Ryder. Because it's aluminum alloy it was used from about 1948 until the pivot point changed in 1954 to the current high location.

 

[hinz57]

The middle lever fits guns that have the lower lever pivot point. An example is the No. 111 Model 40 Red Ryder. Because it's aluminum alloy it was used from about 1948 until the pivot point changed in 1954 to the current high location.

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Thx! That helps. Tells me it doesn’t fit anything I currently have.

So to follow up on the moving of the pivot point. That would suggest that the new lever would be ok to replace the broken 1938 lever. It looks that the geometry is the same. There are some differences on the raised areas on the sides and a notch area which appears to allow for a bit more stroke.

 

[cobalt327]

Yes, the new lever will fit the 1938. The pinch point where the receiver grips the lever may need adjusting to fit the new lever without being too tight, but that's an easy task for someone with your chops. Question- did the 1938 lever break during cocking or was it an accident while modifying it?

 

[hinz57]

Yes, the new lever will fit the 1938. The pinch point where the receiver grips the lever may need adjusting to fit the new lever without being too tight, but that's an easy task for someone with your chops. Question- did the 1938 lever break during cocking or was it an accident while modifying it?.

Thanks for the confirmation. The 1938 came to me with the lever broken. Lots of other damage as well. Like maybe some kid used it for a club after he ran out of ammunition!

I occasionally work on repairing it. I had often considered using the 1938 with a new Mod 25 shot tube, custom air tube, HP spring. Don’t know what that combo would do, but I think it would be a nice solid shooter.

 

[cobalt327]

Thanks for the confirmation. The 1938 came to me with the lever broken. Lots of other damage as well. Like maybe some kid used it for a club after he ran out of ammunition!

I occasionally work on repairing it. I had often considered using the 1938 with a new Mod 25 shot tube, custom air tube, HP spring. Don’t know what that combo would do, but I think it would be a nice solid shooter.

Sure would be- that is how I built my 104 with the exception of the custom air tube. Which brings up a question- when you sent me the air tubes a long time back, do you remember if there was 1 or 2 of your custom tubes? I had thought there was 2 but either I was wrong or I need to look harder for it. I'm thinking I may have mistaken one of the 1/8" ID Daisy tubes for the second custom tube because they're so big!

 

[hinz57]

I’ve slept since then! But I think I just sent one.

 

[cobalt327]

Haa- heard that! But thanks, I can relax and quit worrying I lost it. I need to try my hand at making a custom tube, I just sent you an email on that subject.

 

[NRADAVE]

I’ve slept since then! But I think I just sent one.

Hinz, where could I purchase a couple of drilled out air tubes for the Chinese RRider ?? Say to 3/32”. Any suggestions ?. Thx.

 

[hinz57]

Hinz, where could I purchase a couple of drilled out air tubes for the Chinese RRider ?? Say to 3/32”. Any suggestions ?. Thx.

Dave, 2 suggestions.

1- I can drill out tubes. Only problem with that is that I don’t have any to drill. Sent them all to Cobalt327. I can drill at 3/32”, 7/64”, #40, and 1/8”. 1/8” is a bit tricky to do without a precision collet lathe to do it accurately enough. Its worth it in my opinion.

2- See if Cobalt will share.

I’m slowly working on putting together a daisy parts order. I will add some and get them drilled.

Or, there is the ultimate custom air tube that I can make. Ask Cobalt his opinion about that.

 

[cobalt327]

I was able to drill new production Daisy air tubes to 3/32" using oil and a long drill bit. Totally doable. But as the size increased so did the difficulty I had making a clean hole. I broke a few bits drilling them to 7/64" so I didn't even bother to try 1/8".

The 0.157”/4mm ID custom tubes work great- IF you're using a stronger spring rate. They require a reamed abutment seal because the tubing they're made from has a larger OD (11/64") than the stock tube. But I believe you'd actually lose MV using one in an otherwise stock gun, but that's a guess on my part because I never tried.

 

[hinz57]

I was able to drill new production Daisy air tubes to 3/32" using oil and a long drill bit. Totally doable. But as the size increased so did the difficulty I had making a clean hole. I broke a few bits drilling them to 7/64" so I didn't even bother to try 1/8".

The 0.157”/4mm ID custom tubes work great- IF you're using a stronger spring rate. They require a reamed abutment seal because the tubing they're made from has a larger OD (11/64") than the stock tube. But I believe you'd actually lose MV using one in an otherwise stock gun, but that's a guess on my part because I never tried.

Dave, 2 suggestions.

1- I can drill out tubes. Only problem with that is that I don’t have any to drill. Sent them all to Cobalt327. I can drill at 3/32”, 7/64”, #40, and 1/8”. 1/8” is a bit tricky to do without a precision collet lathe to do it accurately enough. Its worth it in my opinion.

2- See if Cobalt will share.

I’m slowly working on putting together a daisy parts order. I will add some and get them drilled.

Or, there is the ultimate custom air tube that I can make. Ask Cobalt his opinion about that.

Dave, Cobalt makes a great point. When going to the larger sizes, a stronger spring is required. At one time I did experiment with bigger holes with standard daisy springs and lost mv till I preloaded them.

My memory isn’t what it once was. Maybe Cobalt can say what the maximum drill size is that would work well with a stock spring. Seems like 7/64” or #40 worked.

Cobalts HP spring really solves a lot of problems. I don’t remember if you have one or not. If not, I urge you to get one.

We also ultimately found that the id and the length of the stock shot tube is limiting. Hence, all the effort in getting to better fitting/ longer tubes. Really comes down to what your goal is and how much money are you willing to spend.
I’m still trying to figure out what the optimum combination is.

I also have not tried my custom air tube with a standard spring rate. It may act differently for 2 reasons.
1- the od fits the id of the shot tube much closer, so you have less air leak back down the tube.
2- the tube is longer so it closes off the bb port quicker, also reducing air loss.

Looks like I’m going to have to do a research project. Try out a custom air tube in an otherwise completely stock RR.

So, I’m sorry if this isn’t a satisfactory answer to your question.

All that said. If you are not in a big hurry, I will be happy to drill tubes when I get some.

 

[NRADAVE]

Dave, Cobalt makes a great point. When going to the larger sizes, a stronger spring is required. At one time I did experiment with bigger holes with standard daisy springs and lost mv till I preloaded them.

My memory isn’t what it once was. Maybe Cobalt can say what the maximum drill size is that would work well with a stock spring. Seems like 7/64” or #40 worked.

Cobalts HP spring really solves a lot of problems. I don’t remember if you have one or not. If not, I urge you to get one.

We also ultimately found that the id and the length of the stock shot tube is limiting. Hence, all the effort in getting to better fitting/ longer tubes. Really comes down to what your goal is and how much money are you willing to spend.
I’m still trying to figure out what the optimum combination is.

I also have not tried my custom air tube with a standard spring rate. It may act differently for 2 reasons.
1- the od fits the id of the shot tube much closer, so you have less air leak back down the tube.
2- the tube is longer so it closes off the bb port quicker, also reducing air loss.

Looks like I’m going to have to do a research project. Try out a custom air tube in an otherwise completely stock RR.

So, I’m sorry if this isn’t a satisfactory answer to your question.

All that said. If you are not in a big hurry, I will be happy to drill tubes when I get some.

Hinz, thx for the offer and inf. I do have a Cobalt hp spring installed. It takes the RRider to 310 FPS.
Please make me up two tubes drilled to 7/64”. Afraid of the .125, thin walls etc.
I’ll take whatever the .098” gives. No hurry. let Me know $$. Is there a way to PM you ?

 

[hinz57]

Hinz, thx for the offer and inf. I do have a Cobalt hp spring installed. It takes the RRider to 310 FPS.
Please make me up two tubes drilled to 7/64”. Afraid of the .125, thin walls etc.
I’ll take whatever the .098” gives. No hurry. let Me know $$. Is there a way to PM you ?

There is a way on this site, I don’t know how to do it though. Maybe someone with more tech savvy than I have can help?

 

[cobalt327]

Left click on the screen name of the person you want to PM. From the box that opens, select "Start Conversation" and that will get you to the PM text field.

Noel, I have a few 'good' new air tubes here (without visible seams), I will send some your way. Before I do, let me know if I sent you spring installation washers with the last package- if I forgot, I'll send them too.

Dave, I don't have a single one @ 7/64", I have one at 3/32" and 2 @ 1/8", but you're welcome to either.

 

[Cvans]

We are in the middle of a blizzard so I spent some time in the shop with the 499B. After machining a Crosman V350 barrel and installing it the result were less than stellar. This is a smooth bore and I think it is about 13.5 inches long and 7/16" in diameter. I should write this stuff down. Anyway the velocity was 363 fps shooting match BB's after a few warm up shots. With the Hornady BB's it was shooting at 349 fps. Then I machined an 11" rifled barrel from a Chinese B12 and installed it. That was worse yet only attaining 332 fps. Then I coupled two V350 barrels and the velocity dropped even more to a high of 321 fps. They were kept in alignment by machining a nipple in the end of one barrel and a matching recess in the other. Then both ends were threaded for a 1/2" coupler.




I've noticed a couple thing during these tests. First is you need to shoot the gun a few times (at least 10) to warm up the seals to get the best velocity. It's 50 to 55 degrees in the shop. Second the gun is gradually loosing velocity even with the original barrel. Mark mentioned that he was no longer able to his first results with the gun either. I installed new seals and still was only able to get around 415 fps with it. I believe the spring may be taking a set. Also I'm not happy with the material the piston seal is made out of. It is very stiff and seems to seal better after warming up. I'm thinking about fabricating a leather seal to see how that works.

 

[cobalt327]

I believe you're right about the spring taking a set. I'm not sure there's anything that can be done to help that unless I were to spec a spring having a larger ID and OD and made with larger diameter wire. The problem with that is I don't know if the OD would interfere with the gun's functioning and/or hit the inside of the receiver when the gun is cycled, and I also don't know if the larger ID would cause a lot of spring "twang" like break barrel pellet guns have when their spring is loose to the guides. And it would be a $300 gamble to find out.

Something you might try is to use a model 1938B piston with a short plug or ball bearing inserted into the air tube channel to seal the piston. They're made of a softer black rubbery material so would be more compliant.

Your tests are very interesting. I'm guessing the shot tubes all have a relatively large ID compared to the 499B tube and likely that's what is hurting the MV. But good job with the splicing and threading- you guys are good!

 

[hinz57]

Cvans, nice work and info! Thanks! What are the ID’s of the tubes you are working with?

I’ve certainly experienced spring sacking. Especially where I used preload spacers.

 

[Cvans]

Time to put in an order for some 1938 hop up parts.
I think your spring is probably about as strong as you want to go. I do have some other springs to play around with but it looks like a good barrel is the key.
With all the barrels I've tried it appears that when shooting the Hornady black BB's you can expect at least a 10 fps drop in velocity.

 

[NRADAVE]

Left click on the screen name of the person you want to PM. From the box that opens, select "Start Conversation" and that will get you to the PM text field.

Noel, I have a few 'good' new air tubes here (without visible seams), I will send some your way. Before I do, let me know if I sent you spring installation washers with the last package- if I forgot, I'll send them too.

Dave, I don't have a single one @ 7/64", I have one at 3/32" and 2 @ 1/8", but you're welcome to either.

Dave, Cobalt makes a great point. When going to the larger sizes, a stronger spring is required. At one time I did experiment with bigger holes with standard daisy springs and lost mv till I preloaded them.

My memory isn’t what it once was. Maybe Cobalt can say what the maximum drill size is that would work well with a stock spring. Seems like 7/64” or #40 worked.

Cobalts HP spring really solves a lot of problems. I don’t remember if you have one or not. If not, I urge you to get one.

We also ultimately found that the id and the length of the stock shot tube is limiting. Hence, all the effort in getting to better fitting/ longer tubes. Really comes down to what your goal is and how much money are you willing to spend.
I’m still trying to figure out what the optimum combination is.

I also have not tried my custom air tube with a standard spring rate. It may act differently for 2 reasons.
1- the od fits the id of the shot tube much closer, so you have less air leak back down the tube.
2- the tube is longer so it closes off the bb port quicker, also reducing air loss.

Looks like I’m going to have to do a research project. Try out a custom air tube in an otherwise completely stock RR.

So, I’m sorry if this isn’t a satisfactory answer to your question.

All that said. If you are not in a big hurry, I will be happy to drill tubes when I get some.

Hinz, I got a drilled air tube coming from Cobalt. It’s 1/8”. See what I get with it and the HP spring.
I got my “recrowned” barrel installed. Haven’t had an opportunity to test accuracy —-indoor range closed till wife goes shopping—- it’s an expensive way to shoot but what ever it takes. Thx again for the offer.

 

[hinz57]

Time to put in an order for some 1938 hop up parts.
I think your spring is probably about as strong as you want to go. I do have some other springs to play around with but it looks like a good barrel is the key.
With all the barrels I've tried it appears that when shooting the Hornady black BB's you can expect at least a 10 fps drop in velocity.

My opinion is, based on my experience, that you are pretty much at the limit with a 499B 9” tube. Do the tube splice thing with 2 499b tubes and see what you get to. BB to tube fit is everything, to limit air leak past bb. One other idea that I haven’t tried is using a loose fit tube and make a tiny “patch” to act as a seal. Much like the muzzleloaders. Just another idea to minimize air leak past the bb. I don’t have a loose enough tube to try it out. The modified abutment with a 4 lb magnet appears to help. The LW tube helps a lot. I haven’t had the guts to shorten it inch by inch... but I think that’s a great idea! I have been tempted to cut it in half and make 2. Not ready for that though. Keep us posted!

 

[Cvans]

I don't think I'd cut that barrel in half. At least not yet. You just might end up with two $80 barrels that aren't usable.
Haven't got a barrel that is loose enough for a patch either. Next step up would be .20 cal. Might give the two 499 barrels a try. The funny thing is I have two and they give different velocities. Not much but it is there. Probably be next week as I've got a ton of snow and storm mess to clean up.