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Putting a little more power in a $15.00 Daisy

Discussion in 'Air Guns' started by cobalt327, Jul 17, 2016.

  1. cobalt327

    cobalt327 Member

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    Hinz, please correct whatever I may get wrong. The custom air tube is scratch built from stainless steel tubing that is 0.157” ID x 0.171" OD (stock 1938B is 0.078" ID x 0.163” OD). The custom air tube requires the '38B abutment seal be carefully reamed oversize to give a good snug fit to the air tube OD. This custom tube is what Hinz has used to get the highest recorded MV from a repeater to date.

    The Daisy factory air tube can be bored out to a max of 0.125" as long as it's a new style air tube made from 'seamless' tubing. The older tubes had visible seams and these tubes are not suited to boring o/s. You might get away with 3/32" but much beyond that you'll often run into trouble.
     
  2. hinz57

    hinz57 Member

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    Cobalt has it correct. The custom air tube is also longer that stock. The combination of a closer fit inside the shot tube and the length minimizes air loss out the bb feed port and pressure loss back down the shot tube. I never got over 400 till we made the custom air tubes.

    To be clear, are you referring to 1938B or 1938? All the reference thus far has been 1938B.

    Right now I have a project back log that really has me in a “log jam”. My doing anything else would be a significant wait. Also one must consider what it’s worth in $. I can reasonably guess that I have the most expensive lever action daisy in existence. Cobalt comes in pretty close. As I said before, quite a bit of machine work involved.

    Sooo....
     
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  3. NRADAVE

    NRADAVE Member

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    Yes—-1938B, the new China Red Rider. I’m not too hot about maximizing velocity. Looking for accuracy
    I would want a shot tube made from the 499 tubes fitted with a stock abutment that I could drop into a 1938B gun. I’d use the stock air tube assembly and the stock barrel tube end bushing.
    If and when you can get to it let me know. In no hurry whatsoever. Thx.
     
  4. cobalt327

    cobalt327 Member

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    Just a thought, but if MV isn't a priority and you plan on shooting no further than 10-15M, a 499B spring could be installed in place of the 1938B spring. MV would take a nose dive but the shot cycle would be as soft as it can get.

    138521-000 499B MAIN SPRING

    The trigger weight can be improved by removing the rearmost return spring from the trigger module and do away with the anti bear trap spring and rack. I take the sharp edge off the trigger blade, too. The feel is better that way.
     
    Last edited: May 14, 2019
  5. NRADAVE

    NRADAVE Member

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    Thx Mark. I’ll definitely do the trigger.
     
  6. NRADAVE

    NRADAVE Member

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    Mark, do u recall how far the reinforcement dowel pin can protrude into the plunger slot without interfering with spring retaining wedge?
    Also the last HP spring I received is 7 7/8” long. Is this correct ? Can’t compress it without deforming the plunger tube ? Thx.
     
  7. cobalt327

    cobalt327 Member

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    I don't use any reinforcement after the one I made, But that one plunger tube is still in service. The photo shows where and how much the dowel extends into the slot. On the sear end of the plunger tube I didn't bother to add anything. There's a small space for a strategically placed short piece of dowel just aft of where the anchor passes through the slot and in front of the arc the lever follows when cocking but you will need to measure carefully, else the reinforcement will foul one or both.

    RR-1 PLUNGER TUBE DOWEL.jpg

    Here's a photo to help visualize the arc the lever takes:

    1938B RR cutaway cocked.jpg

    Check your PM.
     
    Last edited: May 15, 2019
  8. cobalt327

    cobalt327 Member

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    BBs larger than the Daisy Match ground shot are now available, Marksman Premium Grade Steel BBs, 5.1 Grains, Speedloader, 1,000ct, cost is $6.99 plus $7.99 shipping for 1000 BBs and a loader from PA. Gaylord has a blog on them HERE. They are expensive- like nearly 1-1/2 cents per BB unless you do the PA "Buy 3 and get one free" deal. Using that deal and the GATEWAY-PYRAMYD 10% discount code brings the cost down to just over 2/3 of a cent per BB. This is a tiny bit more than the cost for Daisy Match grade BBs.

    Not all guns will benefit from these but in some guns these BBs will make a big difference. They are large enough that they can cause jams as reported in the reviews on the PA website, so just be sure they won’t jam in your gun, especially if it’s a type that the shot tube isn’t easily removed. How to tell? Not 100% because they can vary from BB to BB, but I’m going to save back a few of the largest I can find as measured w/a micrometer from each bag, then I will test each gun I want to use them in by seeing if I can roll the BBs down the shot tube from the muzzle end.

    So far I'm just seeing these with the loader included. Hopefully at some later date they will sell them in bulk w/o loader for less money per BB. At least the loader is a very good piece in my opinion. I use one just like it except it's 30 years old and has a dark gray body w/a black cap. Makes loading a 25 shot tube as well as the RR/105 w/loading doors a breeze. Works great for all the Daisys I have used it on, for that matter.

    There are also Marksman "Laserhawk" BBs listed on the PA site- they are NOT the same as the Marksman Premium Grade Steel BBs.

    PY-P-439_Marksman-Premium-Grade-Steel_1476908296.jpg
     
    Last edited: May 17, 2019
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  9. Cvans

    Cvans Member

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    Good info Mark. Looking forward to seeing what the consistency and diameter of those BB's is.
    We are suppose to be going into an extended wet period so hope to spend some more time with the Frankengun. Accuracy test will be first on the list and then a butt stock.
     
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  10. hinz57

    hinz57 Member

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    That’s very interesting! Could put all the work finding a smaller tube to waste....

    Will also be interested to know how round they are. I have found some match grade that are not very round. They will sometimes jam in the LW tube. Then you get them out and try a different rotation and they drop right in....
     
  11. cobalt327

    cobalt327 Member

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    I have serious doubts these will work reliably in the 499 tubes but I could be wrong. I measured a few Daisy 880 shot tubes- both rifled and smoothbore- and they're going to work in some but possibly not all of them. But in the guns they DO fit, I'd expect good things from them. Providing their reasonably concentric as hinz mentions. Gaylord's measurements seem to indicate the possibility they're not very round, but the proof's in the shooting.

    I'm ordering 4 of them. Was also going to get another 240 spring but hinz bought them all! (jk). They're on "preorder" which is another way to say backordered, supposed to be back in stock by 6-12-19. I'm not sure if the spring will ship at a later date with no additional shipping if I pay for the BBs and spring today but I think that's the case. I'll open a chat to find out.

    ETA- "By default, all items ordered today would ship together once they are all in stock. You can request they be sent separately, in which case there of course would be additional shipping costs."
     
    Last edited: May 17, 2019
  12. Cvans

    Cvans Member

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    Sure would be nice if those BB's would be concentric.
     
  13. cobalt327

    cobalt327 Member

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    True. I'm also wondering the "why" of it. I mean, what gun are these BBs primarily designed for? No one would tool up for an oversize BB without having a use for them besides the odd gun here and there that they just happen to work in. And there's no way I'm believing they're made for old, worn out shot tubes. Marksman sells a few different BB guns, probably not too much of a stretch to believe they're made to fit some of them. But nothing like that is being claimed by Marksman. And there are scores of reviews stating the BBs have jammed in all sort of guns.

    I'm going to rethink my earlier decision to immediately jump on board w/these BBs. I think it makes more sense to wait a bit to be sure these aren't some sort of aberration and to see if future BBs are not as large- but hopefully larger than the standard BBs like the zinc plated Daisys. One thou bigger than the Daisy Match with good uniformity and concentricity would suit me just fine.
     
  14. NRADAVE

    NRADAVE Member

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    Just ordered a couple packs. The daisy shot tubes I measured were at 0.178+ Be a good fit if they’re concentric. will report my experiences.
     
  15. Cvans

    Cvans Member

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    Thank you. Looking forward to the results.
     
  16. cobalt327

    cobalt327 Member

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    Have a model 95 that the barrel seal had stuck to the piston, resealed it and still WAY down on power. I mean, like 115 fps! Even changed to a good spring, nearly no improvement. Then I got to really looking at the shot tube. I thought the shot tube from the Millennium 2000 way back in the thread was bad (and it was,) but THIS tube is even worse. That's 2 sheets of paper in the seam, with room for at least 1 more.

    95 SHOT TUBE WIDE SEAM.jpg
     
  17. Cvans

    Cvans Member

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    Newbie question, do all in the 1938 style guns have shot tubes with seams? Model 25, 40, and so on?
     
  18. cobalt327

    cobalt327 Member

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    I've not had a model 25 shot tube apart to see the actual tube itself but I suspect that at least the older ones with a steel cap and no magnets are seamed. The 111-40 and all the other removable gravity fed tubes I've come across are seamed, and so are the older non-removable "B" type shot tubes ('38B, 105B. etc.). Somewhere along the line, the B types started getting better quality shot tube and air tube tubing without a visible seam, and I think the new type 25 shot tubes w/plastic cap and magnets use the "good" tubing too. I seem to remember someone getting a new shot tube from Daisy that had a visible seam but I could be mixing that up with a new air tube, also bought from Daisy, that had a seam. Maybe there were both with seams. But that's very uncommon- I've never gotten a seamed shot tube or air tube new from Daisy out of all that I've bought the last ~ 3 years.
     
    Last edited: May 19, 2019 at 2:39 AM
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  19. hinz57

    hinz57 Member

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    The seam problem is very real. Not only Cobalts shown problem, but also can be very out of round.

    On one order about a year ago, I odered several 1938b tubes, and 3 of them were seamed. Was s bit a argument with daisy, but they exchanged them. Maybe should have kept them for pure restoration use.

    I’m pretty sure the seamless tubes started with Chinese part production. The 70th Anniversary guns are seamless. Both shot tube and air tube. There were Made in China stickers under the fore stock. Soo...

    I would say, without any proof, that all older daisy guns made in America will have a seamed shot tube. Just a guess. I think they had the machinery and didn’t change till someone showed them a cheaper, faster, more profitable way.....

     
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  20. Cvans

    Cvans Member

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    Thanks guys. I would never have imagined a seam in an airgun barrel. Just seems like the natural place to loose air pressure.
     
  21. cobalt327

    cobalt327 Member

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    Regarding when the tubing changed, I agree with hinz. Besides the seamed tubes, the spring in the 2000 1938B as well as other US made Daisys (primarily the guns made in Rogers, earlier Plymouth guns at least had stiff and/or longer free length springs) was a rather poorly made piece as well. The Chinese made guns have a much improved spring over what came in the 2000. Ground and squared ends, more uniform and just a better finished part in general. FWIW I believe Daisy contracted with various spring vendors through the years when they made the BB guns here in the US. I've seen small differences in the springs but the spring rate remained constant.
     
    Last edited: May 19, 2019 at 11:06 PM
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  22. Cvans

    Cvans Member

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    I put some time in today with the 499 Frankingun to see what it would do for accuracy. Afraid the results with the present sighting system are not very good. The smallest groups I could get at 10 meters were about the size of a quarter and that was with the short barrel. With the extended barrel they opened up to half dollar size. My eyes are just not good enough without a scope to see accurately. Going to come up with a scope to fit the weaver rail and then take some photos.
    The lock times on an air-rifle are pretty long and on a low powered BB gun they are even longer. This means you have to hold the gun steady for a longer period of time. When shooting with a reddot that is very hard to do and even harder to tell if the trigger pull is causing accuracy issues.
     
  23. Cvans

    Cvans Member

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    Came up with enough parts to mount a scope on the gun. Made a huge difference and I can now tell what's going on. The scope and mounts are too big for the gun but work for now. Also I'm now able to rest my cheek on the comb and have a good sight picture. Kind of like how the gun looks like it has a bull barrel. :)

    thumbnail (1).jpg
    First off the gun is very light and I now have a new appreciation for the kids that can shoot these accurately. Even with the original spring. The only way I can do it is to pull the gun into my shoulder as hard as I can and put down pressure on the rest. I'm guessing a lot of this has to do with the heavier spring. When I could anchor the gun it shot pretty good but was still getting an occasional flyer.
    So the plan is to add weight to both the forend and butt stocks. This should help a lot. Might even come up with a weight to fit inside the barrel that the shot tube would pass through. This instead of something inside the forend.
    Also considering trying another shot tube as I understand some are better than others. If I don't have one here then a stock spring is going to be ordered at the same time so the accuracy can be compared with the 1938B spring.
    Lastly the butt end of the darn stock is very slippery. Everytime the gun fires the stock slips on my shoulder. Might try a slip on butt pad as the extra length of pull would help also.
     
    Last edited: May 22, 2019 at 7:51 PM
  24. cobalt327

    cobalt327 Member

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    It does look like a bull barreled rifle! Those are all good, sound ideas IMHO and they should help considerably. You may remember there's a cavity inside the forearm for adding weight, unfortunately Daisy has never to my knowledge sold or supplied the weights themselves. The lighter spring will almost assuredly help close up but the gun basically becomes a 5M gun again and shooting at something out 20-plus yards will be like lobbing artillery shells at a distant target.
     
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