Putting a little more power in a $15.00 Daisy

Thanks for the update. Just out of curiosity how close to being round are they?
 
They looked very good in that regard, no more than 1, 2 tenths- about the same eccentricity as difference in diameters among those that were different. But for the most part they looked very uniform. Just a shame they weren't a smidgen smaller is all. I would also mention that none measured over 0.177".
 
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They looked very good in that regard, no more than 1, 2 tenths- about the same eccentricity as difference in diameters among those that were different. But for the most part they looked very uniform. Just a shame they weren't a smidgen smaller is all. I would also mention that none measured over 0.177".
Should probably go through the pile of new 1938b shot tubes. Maybe one is 0.178. If there were 2, put one in a gun. Make a “sorter” to pretest if they go through.... I bet some of the old seamed tubes are big enough....
 
Should probably go through the pile of new 1938b shot tubes. Maybe one is 0.178. If there were 2, put one in a gun. Make a “sorter” to pretest if they go through.... I bet some of the old seamed tubes are big enough....
I just took your advice and did just that, and I'm very glad I did! Turns out all the new and used 1938B shot tubes I checked WILL accept the Marksman BBs. What I found, though, is there seems to be a slight tight spot at the muzzle end of several of them, including the two that are in guns currently. This causes the BB to stop right after it enters the muzzle of the tube. I'm not going to say these tubes are choked- it may be nothing more than a slight restriction caused by a machining op. But the restriction is there, and because of an abundance of caution I did not force the BB past the point where it stopped by gravity.

So I'm going to see if I can get a few of these BBs to shoot from one of my 1938B guns, My problem now is, which one to use? There's no guarantee that a BB won't jam in the shot tube, and if it jams there's a chance the tube will be damaged removing it.

On the gravity feed shot tubes, I dug WAY down in my parts and found a Daisy 104 tube from the original gun I first modified and the Marksman BBs pass through it. I don't use gravity feed removable shot tubes, but if someone here does (like in a No. 1938 Red Ryder Carbine or a 95, 96, etc.) be sure to check feeding from BOTH ends. By that I mean, check rolling the BB from the muzzle, but then roll one in through the feed chute to be sure the restriction there doesn't cause the BB to hang up. Out of the 4 gravity feed tubes I have on hand, 3 of them hang up that way. The restriction on the breech end of the gravity feed shot tube is before the spring retainer, right where the BB drops into the shot tube. If this isn't clear, ask and I'll post photos- I would now but am anxious to see if I can get these to shoot!

More to come.
 
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#16 drill rod is 0.177”. Often just under that. When I first started this adventure, I purchased a piece to poke through the shot tubes with a bit of valve grinding compound on it to attempt a bit of polish. If you have a tight spot, you could give that a try. Maybe even just use the end of a #16 drill...
 
cobalt327

Just wanted to say thank you for the high performance spring plus washer and metal
cocking lever for my 105b.
Working on these guns is delving into the mechanical genius from
the 1800's. Great possibilities exist with these platforms.

I would say an honest 20 fps increase, from just having the air tube opened up to .094.
and a good 55 fps increase from the stock starting point of 260 fps with the Daisy precision
ground shot.
I never would have believed it!!
Copper Head qty 3 measuring .171.
1st 306 fps
2nd 304 fps
3rd 297 fps

Next Daisy precision ground shot. measuring .174.
1st 317 fps
2nd 313 fps
3rd 312 fps
4th 315 fps
5th duplicate
I'm really happy !!! This little 105b is a monster now.
I new it when I first cocked the gun. Wow , glad to have the stronger metal cocking lever.
Thank you for sending the washer. It did help greatly during reassembly , as this spring
is a real power house requiring more pressure to get the rear sight retaining wedge in.
This is the most powerful spring powered BB gun in my arsenal now! And with my experimental
rear peep sight and green polycarbonate front sight it is much more accurate than ever.
I think the added weight of the metal handle gives improved stability also.
When my order for the Marksman bb's gets here I'll go cautiously even though I can get a 179 minus pin
to just slip in my barrel. Who knows I might break 325 fps..

Thank You
yes2guns
 
That's great to hear, y2g!! Do be cautious when you try the Marksman BBs, although I think I pretty much cried wolf when I said earlier that they wouldn't fit.

On that point, I shot a model 96 using a very worn gravity feed shot tube from a model 95 and the average using standard WM zinc plated Daisy BBs is 253.3 fps. Using the Marksman BBs, unsorted straight from the tube averaged 274 fps. But using an unworn gravity feed shot tube in the same gun averaged 280 fps using standard WM Daisy BBs. The Marksman BBs will not reliably fit the unworn shot tube, for whatever reason.

Next I'll try the Marksman BBs in a modified 1938B, more later.

ETA- correct typo on MV for unworn tube with standard BBs, had it down as 290 fps when it was supposed to be 280 fps.
 
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Okay, now we're getting somewhere. I just chrony'd a good shooting 1938B that did 340 fps average using Daisy zinc plated BBs. Using Marksman BBs, the average is 363 fps. Will check accuracy later. But it's starting to look very good for guns that will shoot them.
 
#16 drill rod is 0.177”. Often just under that. When I first started this adventure, I purchased a piece to poke through the shot tubes with a bit of valve grinding compound on it to attempt a bit of polish. If you have a tight spot, you could give that a try. Maybe even just use the end of a #16 drill...
Thank you for reminding me- I have a numbered bit index here so I'll do just that if need be.

I want to again say that the Marksman BBs are very close in the 105B and 1938B shot tubes, so please everyone- proceed with caution! If an out of round BB gets lodged in the tube it's game over. Before I shoot any more of these I'm going to make a tool like hinz mentioned earlier to gauge them prior to shooting them. But in any event I just want folks to be cautious, I'd feel pretty bad if these BBs cost someone a shot tube!
 
Received 4 pkg of the marksman bbs. My samples measured from 0.1763/0.1773”. Concentricity Ran about .0005” max.
The 3 1938B shot tubes, I have available, will accept about 3/8” of a #15 drill shank. Which measures 0.1785”.
Have “fired” a hundred or so thru two guns, no issues so far.
Guns shot 2” higher at 33’ than the Daisy match bbs. More velocity? Loaned my Chrony back to my brother, will ck upon return.
Haven’t decided if accuracy is improved. Need more time on the bench.
No doubt, they’re a tight fit. If u stick one in the first couple inches, you’ll damage the air tube also.
 
I also noticed it was shooting high while shooting a few at hanging targets in the BY, and I still have done no actual accuracy testing yet either. I suspect the added MV is the cause as you mentioned.
 
Once I moved out to my normal target distances of 20-30 yards, the gun is shooting spot on for elevation and needed no windage adjustment either. My theory on why this is, is the added MV is counteracted at these somewhat extended ranges by the extra weight of the Marksman BBs. Or not. But they shoot very well and really put a wallop on the targets!

Plain and simply put, I do not like to shoot groups. I find it boring while also being somewhat stressful. I shoot for enjoyment. Target shooting for groups is not enjoyable for me and I find it a chore. Maybe it's that the targets reflect my lack of skill for bench shooting, well, not really bench shooting- more like shooting while sitting with the forend of the gun rested on a railing with a towel folded under it. I shoot standing or sitting w/o resting the gun when I plink and maybe that's what I need to try next time I shoot a group but I doubt it'll be any better that what's shown below. I will say that I honestly believe these BBs can shoot tighter groups than if using standard zinc plated Daisy BBs when shot by someone with the chops to take advantage of their potential- but I'm not that guy. Whether they're as accurate as or better than the Daisy Match Grade BBs I cannot say. The MV has been higher using the Marksman than Match Grades, for what that's worth.

IMGP0985.JPG
 
That looks an awful lot like the groups I'm getting. I'm not much of a paper puncher either but I find it very comforting to know that I'm going to hit what I'm aiming at. An English Sparrow is not a very big target at 20 yards.
Do you remember the ID of the 499b shot tubes?
 
I have seen some small variation in the 499b shot tubes. I would say nominally 0.176”.

The LW tube is 0.1751-2 at the breech.

There certainly could be 499 tubes + - 0.0005”from 0.176”

I now have Diana springs in hand. I plan to try to stuff one in the 499b/LW. Best chrono # thus far is 552, but just once. New spring, perfect bb, etc. 535 many times. Maybe improvement with more spring! Getting it in there will not be easy. Reliability. Who knows...
 
Tried the Marksman BBs in a new model 25 shot tube. This was in my old 104 w/the shroud extension that looks like a plumber had a bad trip. Anyway. the MV went from an average of 344 fps using standard WM Daisy BBs to 387 fps with the Marksman BBs. Increase of 12.5% if math's right.

NOTE: Again- use caution if trying to shoot the Marksman BBs! They are VERY close in the 499 tube.
 
I have seen some small variation in the 499b shot tubes. I would say nominally 0.176”.

The LW tube is 0.1751-2 at the breech.

There certainly could be 499 tubes + - 0.0005”from 0.176”

I now have Diana springs in hand. I plan to try to stuff one in the 499b/LW. Best chrono # thus far is 552, but just once. New spring, perfect bb, etc. 535 many times. Maybe improvement with more spring! Getting it in there will not be easy. Reliability. Who knows...
Thanks for the clarification on the 499 tube ID.

At full length the Diana spring's going to be a handful. Definitely will need a mechanical compressor to get it installed onto the plunger tube, or at least I would. I'm using a caulking gun for a compressor. I first doubted it had the strength to compress a HP spring but it did just fine!

Will be watching for your results with great interest!
 
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I also use a caulking gun compressor. Saw it somewhere along the way. Thanks to somebody! Maybe it was cobalt327! I’ve slept since then.....

Your results with the Marksman bbs made me remember the double length 1938b shot tube project. That would be interesting to try again with the larger bbs. The length didn’t help even with Match bbs.

All the various trials certainly continue to confirm that the fit of the bb to the tube is in direct relation to the mv.

The model 25 shot tube results are certainly interesting. Now just get a custom air tube in there. Maybe there’s another path to a 400+ repeater!
 
I got the caulking gun idea from someone else, can't recall who atm. So the idea has been around.

That's an excellent idea about the 104 air tube!! The tube in my old 104 is no larger than 7/64" and may well be 3/32", so a 1/8" tube will definitely make a difference and could boost it to the 400 fps plateau.

I'll get a sample of the Marksman BBs out to you today, tomorrow at the latest. I think you'll like the loader, I've used one similar to it for ages. The trick to using it is to squeeze the pinch point that is made to retain the BBs in the loader, NOT squeezing the large part of the loader the way Mr. Gaylord was trying to do it.

I'd be very interested in the results from the Marksman's shot from the double length 1938B shot tube setup.

BB SPEEDLOADER B.jpg
 
Hinz are you still interested in this 499b front sight? If so send me a private reponse with your address and I'll get it out to you. I no longer will be using it.
 
Once I moved out to my normal target distances of 20-30 yards, the gun is shooting spot on for elevation and needed no windage adjustment either. My theory on why this is, is the added MV is counteracted at these somewhat extended ranges by the extra weight of the Marksman BBs. Or not. But they shoot very well and really put a wallop on the targets!

Plain and simply put, I do not like to shoot groups. I find it boring while also being somewhat stressful. I shoot for enjoyment. Target shooting for groups is not enjoyable for me and I find it a chore. Maybe it's that the targets reflect my lack of skill for bench shooting, well, not really bench shooting- more like shooting while sitting with the forend of the gun rested on a railing with a towel folded under it. I shoot standing or sitting w/o resting the gun when I plink and maybe that's what I need to try next time I shoot a group but I doubt it'll be any better that what's shown below. I will say that I honestly believe these BBs can shoot tighter groups than if using standard zinc plated Daisy BBs when shot by someone with the chops to take advantage of their potential- but I'm not that guy. Whether they're as accurate as or better than the Daisy Match Grade BBs I cannot say. The MV has been higher using the Marksman than Match Grades, for what that's worth.

View attachment 843602
Your groups are about what I’m getting out of my 1938B at 33ft. At 25ft they tighten to around an inch. The additional 8 ft makes a big difference.
We must remember what the limits are, a “rock” hard round unpatched ball, weighing 5 gr, launched from a smooth and poorly supported barrel. I’d say we’re doing pretty dam well.
“Group” shooting is stressful, you’re always waiting for that flyer that screws you up :). Shot 22 rf bench competition for many yrs. The quest for the “perfect” one holer marches on.
 
Just a quick info share.
Finally received my order of marksman premium bb's here in St Paul MN.
They measured exactly like NRADAVE's batch did.
I picked one out and it measured .1772 to .1774. Fired them into a small box with about 10 layers of cardboard
carefully cut to slip inside it. Testing conducted with the same bb. And my 105b.
1st shot was 326 fps. Retrieved it.
2nd shot was 322 fps. Retrieved it.
3rd shot was 325 fps. Retrieved it.
Now I gave a shot of silicone spray lube in the oil hole. (liquid wrench brand)
4th shot 331 fps. Retrieved it.
5th duplicate.
Then fired one shot with .171 copper head bb, 308 fps. just to see.
Got out my Lee powder scale. Zeroed it, then weighed my 2 test bb's.
The .171 copper head bb was coming in at 5 grains even.
I had to set the scale all the way up to 5.6 grains to get the .1772 Marksman
Premium bb to balance out.
These Marksman BB's remind me of plus P ammo.
They are to my 105b what spinach is to popeye.
Can't express my thankfulness enough for this wonderful forum.
And to cobalt327 for the high performance spring.
My 105b would only do 250 fps with 171 copperheads before upgrades of the
power spring and reaming the air tube to .094 id. and the metal cocking lever.
I think I've caught the "Muzzle Velocity addiction"
Yes2guns
 
That's great to hear, Y2G! A 23% increase from the spring and air tube and another 6% on top of that just from changing BBs is outstanding!

And yes, these guns are addictive!!

That's an excellent idea about the 104 air tube!! The tube in my old 104 is no larger than 7/64" and may well be 3/32", so a 1/8" tube will definitely make a difference and could boost it to the 400 fps plateau.
Took the 104 apart last night only to discover it already has a 1/8" air tube in it. Don't remember doing it but it's there. So not going to get 400 fps out of it, but I'm still stoked how well it's shooting just the same.
 
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I was recently talking to hinz57 and Shane about a problem I was having- or thought I was having, with a leaking abutment in a gravity feed shot tube-equipped No. 111 Model 40 Red Ryder. The gun came to me with a broken off shot tube that I had to extract from the abutment before the gun could be assembled. After assembling it, it wasn't shooting up to par despite having done all the usual things- new piston, barrel seal, spring, air tube, lube. Nothing has brought the MV up to where I know it should be. So while pondering this I happened to shine a light from under the abutment and I could see light passing through a small opening next to one of the abutment retaining tabs (circled in photo below). My question was, “Is this significant, and if so, how to fix it?”

111-40 ABUT LEAK Breech AA.jpg

At this point I am reasonably certain that what I’m seeing is a common manufacturing ‘defect’ and while it IS a leak, the leak is likely an insignificant percentage of the whole air charge, so is nothing to be overly concerned about. I came to this opinion after looking at several different guns and seeing they all have “leaks” to some degree, some considerably worse than my particular 111-40.

So you’re probably asking yourself, then why post this non-info in the first place? Well, the reason is to show everyone who might not be familiar with it what the abutment looks like and how it’s used in a Daisy.

ABUTMENT NO 1938 OVER 94 NOEL COMPOSITE.jpg

Hinz sent the photos to me of the dissected Daisys that the composite photo above was made from. You may notice he did a brilliant job of drilling out the spot welds and photographing the results to show the inner workings!

You can see there’s two different ways Daisy used to secure the abutment and to form the compression chamber. The Model 94 Red Ryder is the same as the 111-40 Red Ryder in this regard. They use a smaller 13/16 ID compression tube inside a second tube that is spot welded to the shroud. The No. 1938 uses an abbreviated tube that’s also spot welded to the shroud but it uses no separate compression tube- the compression tube is formed from the shroud ID. This was likely done to simplify assembly and to cut costs. The seals used in the guns that use this type of simplified assembly can be 7/8” like the 1938 or it can be 13/16” like the wide frame guns- it all depends on the diameter of the shroud.
 
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Here’s a bit of data. Sometime back, there was a discussion about the idea of chrome or nickel plating the id of 1938b shot tubes.

Today I went to a couple of places that do such things. Basically it could be done with electroless nickel to 0.175- 0.176 id. For about $125 / tube. Chrome was not something they would even consider attempting.

The owner/ manager was very helpful and interested. He felt that the nickel would not be very durable.

Just another data point on this rabbit trail....
 
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