Quandry for me

[MosinT53Hunter]

I am a crossroad of what I want and what will fit me. I have right now a very nice, almost new Daewoo DP51 pistol, with two magazines. It shoots well, never a mis fire. But, it doesn't fit my small hands as well as I was hoping. Plus the safety is so small, and to click it on I have to move my hand off the gun to apply it.
Now, I am looking at possibly replacing it with a new S&W 442 Pro Series. I like the reviews I have seen, I like the hammerless look of it, its light weight, and a few more other plus's. But the down side is that I go from 13 rounds to 5, and the recoil will be snappier with most ammunition.

So, if you were me, would you trade down for comfort and carry, vs. having more round capacity but not as comfortable of a fit of a hand gun. I have other single stack pistols that fit me very well, but I would like to have something that is double action that is as safe as can be with live rounds in it. What do you think?

 

[Dibbs]

Try an old S&W 6906. Just see how it shoots, and fits your hand. (If you can find one.)

 

[bluejeans]

Buy the 442 but don’t sell the dp51 until you confirm that you like the s&w better ( I think you will)
Carry whatever fits you best with and don’t worry about capacity... having it with you is more important than round capacity

 

[rskent]

What do I think?

I think J frames are very hard to shoot well.

 

[Browning]

What are you using it for?

Home defense?
Carry?
Range plinking?

I probably wouldn't use such a gun for carry.

A gun in the hand is worth two at the store, so while I'd get something that actually fit you (maybe look at the CZ-75 Compact, CZ P-01 or the BHP) I'd wait until I actually bought it and confirmed it worked before I let the other one go down the road.

The guy above me also had a good observation. J frames are hard to shoot well.

 

[bannockburn]

MosinT53Hunter

While your Daewoo DP51 has been a reliable pistol for you, there are ergonomic factors involved here that don't work for you (I know as I also have small size hands). As Browning pointed out in his post the bigger question is what do you want this new gun to be used for: home defense, concealed carry, range use, or all of the above? A S&W Model 442 makes for a nice concealed carry gun but typically requires a great deal more practice to become proficient with it. Then there's the limiting factor of having only 5 rounds; a bit of downside for quick reloads. So the Model 442 as a multi-purpose gun kind of falls short of being the ideal choice to fill so many roles.

If it were me I would be looking for a compact or subcompact 9mm. pistol. There are an incredible number to choose from: guns by Glock, S&W, SIG, CZ, FN, Kahr, HK, Ruger, Springfield Armory, Kimber, and Beretta, to name some of the more popular ones.Your best course of action would be to go to a well stocked gun store or a local gun show and literally try as many of the different models on for size. Then if there's a range in your area to see if you can rent some of the different guns you're interested in. This way you can make an informed decision on what really works best for you. And please let us know what you finally decide to go with.

 

[jar]

While a snub nose may require more practice initially they certainly are not at all "hard to shoot" or even hard to shoot accurately. The last few times I've had to shoot qualifying for any reason I've used one of my snub nose revolvers since experience has shown me that that is what I'll likely carry regardless.

They are also not hard to reload quickly. Again, the secret is to practice.

I like and have liked snub nosed revolvers as a self defense choice and looking at the numbers made and sold over the last century so have other folk.

BUT...

as much as I hate the idea I have pretty much transitioned from my snubbies as my primary choice for carry and self defense to the new pocket 380s out there today. They all hold 6 + 1 rounds (or more) initially so that is one or two more rounds than any of my snubbies and a spare magazine is easier to carry and conceal than a spare speed loader. Today's 380 rounds ain't my grandfathers 380 rounds. And the new crop of small 380s really are much easier to carry, conceal, present and maintain than either my snubbies or my older small 380s like the Beretta 1934 & 86, Walther PPK, Sig P230, Bersa Thunder or Colt Mustang (all but the Sig P230 have moved on but it is still around).

Today I find that it's one of my newer 380s that actually ends up getting carried and either in a pocket (with holster) or OWB. The herd has steadily grown and now numbering five. Four are true double action with second strike capability while the fifth is the LCP with a weird Rube Goldberg action that cocks the hammer on recoil like a normal DA/SA but still has the long trigger pull and truly strange double reset instead of the very short stroke crisp trigger of a DA/SA in the SA mode. All are smaller and lighter (except from my Airweight 642) and far easier to carry and conceal than either the larger semis or my snubbies.

Of the herd the most reliable so far have been the Remington RM380 and the Sig P290RS. The only issue with the Beretta Pico is that it does not seem to like wide mouth hollow point ammo.The S&W M&P Bodyguard 380 had a strange habit. If I dropped an empty magazine the slide slammed forward immediately. It has gone back to the mothership and is due back here tomorrow. I hope they solved that issue because other than the premature slide closure it too has been near perfect. The Ruger LCP is kinda an outlier, just not as nice in anyway as the others. It seems to have bad hair days when it doesn't want to feed or eject the very same ammo it liked last time and that double reset is really, really, really, really annoying. The sights are simply pathetic (I don't take off points though since for the intended purpose of the gun sights are kinda superfluous) and overall it just feels cheap. But it is the lightest of the group, reasonably accurate and except on bad hair days reliable.

Looking back on my recent experience the Remington RM380 definitely has gotten the most Walk About, and by a wide margin. It's been the most surprising and overall reliable, accurate and easiest to use, rack, maintain, shoot and conceal. It does have sights that are just barely better than the Ruger LCP's though.

Sig P290RS with extended 8+1 magazine:







​

 

[JONWILL]

You have a couple option off the top of my head

Higher capacity you can get the Colt Cobra 6 shots it is heavy though. Get an old small alloy frame colt that holds 6 shots also

The metal j frames do kick with +P. I switched to the plastic Frame Smith and Wesson Bodyguard 38
It has less felt recoil than the metal frame gun

The 38 does have limited self defense ammunition that is effective in short barrel guns. I use Federal HST the one that has looks like a Hollow Base wadcutter upside down

Other option with more ammo selections would be the Ruger LCR in 9mm. It still maintains good velocity in a short barrel

 

[Obturation]

Carry what you can manipulate easily. You will likely never need your gun, if you do need it you likely will not require a large capacity. Unless you do. Less rounds only means you need to make them count, one to the vitals is better than 20 you hit nothing with. I wouldnt hesitate to carry a j frame, just practice more.

 

[NIGHTLORD40K]

Try an old S&W 6906. Just see how it shoots, and fits your hand. (If you can find one.)

Ive had both the 6906 and DP51 and the Smith is actually chunkier, so it probably wouldnt be a good fit for the OP.

A 3913 might, though. Great pistols.

 

[Browning]

While a snub nose may require more practice initially they certainly are not at all "hard to shoot" or even hard to shoot accurately. The last few times I've had to shoot qualifying for any reason I've used one of my snub nose revolvers since experience has shown me that that is what I'll likely carry regardless.

To be fair the actual quote was 'Hard to shoot well'.

It can be done. It's completely possible to do it, it just requires a bit more work.

People should be honest with themselves about what they're like as human beings. If you're the type of person who is disciplined and organized enough to follow a training regimen of some sort and actually train with it and make its intricacies muscle memory then that's awesome.

You also have to remember that you have fewer shots.

It just depends on the individual and the environment.

 

[BSA1]

I have a long love / hate relationship with J-Frame revolvers.

As a young LEO my choices back then for off-duty carry were small revolvers and .380's. There were not good hollowpoints for .380's back then so the revolver was the best choice. The J-Frame was particularly handy in the side pocket of my duty coat when making suspicious car stops. Putting my right hand in my coat pocket grasping my little revolver gain me a tactical advantage if thing turns bad quick while avoiding making it appear that I was looking for a gunfight.

Now the hate part. Small grips make it hard to shoot accurately and to control with hotter +p ammo. Bigger grips help with both but make it harder to conceal.

The limited ammunition capacity is a big concern for me.

Since semi-autos have become so refined and reliable I have quit carrying J-Frame revolvers for edc. I have kept two that I use as "niche" guns.

One is a stainless steel Taurus M85. It has rubber grips and I carry it in a nylon holster. It is my fishing gun. I keep a mix of a couple of shotshells and semi wadcutters which allows me to deal with snakes and turtles.

My other J-Frame is a Taurus 22 Magnum. Long backstory but it is a bugout gun. It lives in a US Military 30 Caliber ammo can with 500 rounds of ammo, holster and a few other accessories. The 22 Magnum is a particularly nasty self-defense cartridge. Basically it did not turn out to be useful for what I originally brought it for but it has found life as a repurposed bug-out gun package.

There a lot of other good choices. I would take my time and handle a bunch of different guns. Sometimes the most fun is in the hunt.

 

[Pat Riot]

Of the herd the most reliable so far have been the Remington RM380

Jar is correct about the RM380. I have one and have fired hundreds of rounds through it with every type and manufacturer’s .380 ammo through it and have never had a problem. The sights are the one downside to this gun but it is reliable.

What do I think?

I think J frames are very hard to shoot well.

I would agree if you do not practice or shoot them often. I bought a 442 in ‘97 and couldn’t hit squat with it. I shot it a lot and I practiced my trigger pull with snap caps and I got pretty good with it. Out of all my carry options this gun is at the top of my list. I also own a S&W model 36 and a 60 Pro. I do not feel unde gunned with any if them.

Often I find myself taking both my 442 and my RM380 with me. I like them and trust them both very much.

 

[rskent]

I would agree if you do not practice or shoot them often.

Yes, you can practice with them and master them. Lots of people do. Doesn’t make it easy to do.

I shot it a lot and I practiced my trigger pull with snap caps and I got pretty good with it.

And that brings us the crux of the situation. In my mind “shooting well” and “got pretty good” are not even the same thing. Not even close.

 

[Pat Riot]

And that brings us the crux of the situation. In my mind “shooting well” and “got pretty good” are not even the same thing. Not even close.

Pretty good to me is 5 rounds at 7 yards rapid fire (1/2 second per shot) all center mass with about a 4-5 inch group. I think that’s pretty good.

 

[rskent]

Pretty good to me is 5 rounds at 7 yards rapid fire (1/2 second per shot) all center mass with about a 4-5 inch group. I think that’s pretty good.

And if you are comfortable with that, who am I to say otherwise.


One question, that’s strong hand only, correct?

 

[Pat Riot]

And if you are comfortable with that, who am I to say otherwise.


One question, that’s strong hand only, correct?

Exactly and Yes.

 

[Tallball]

Get the J-frame and keep them both. They serve different purposes.

 

[MosinT53Hunter]

Thank you for all the advice. Been running around cleaning snow and coming down with a cold too boot. I am leaning towards getting the 442, and still keep the daewoo. I wanted something to carry without having the hammer catching on an inner coat pocket and such, plus being light weight. I live out in the country, and having something quick, easy and reliable is very appealing. If and when this snow goes away, I think a hunt for that elusive groundhog is in order..

 

[MosinT53Hunter]

While a snub nose may require more practice initially they certainly are not at all "hard to shoot" or even hard to shoot accurately. The last few times I've had to shoot qualifying for any reason I've used one of my snub nose revolvers since experience has shown me that that is what I'll likely carry regardless.

They are also not hard to reload quickly. Again, the secret is to practice.

I like and have liked snub nosed revolvers as a self defense choice and looking at the numbers made and sold over the last century so have other folk.

BUT...

as much as I hate the idea I have pretty much transitioned from my snubbies as my primary choice for carry and self defense to the new pocket 380s out there today. They all hold 6 + 1 rounds (or more) initially so that is one or two more rounds than any of my snubbies and a spare magazine is easier to carry and conceal than a spare speed loader. Today's 380 rounds ain't my grandfathers 380 rounds. And the new crop of small 380s really are much easier to carry, conceal, present and maintain than either my snubbies or my older small 380s like the Beretta 1934 & 86, Walther PPK, Sig P230, Bersa Thunder or Colt Mustang (all but the Sig P230 have moved on but it is still around).

Today I find that it's one of my newer 380s that actually ends up getting carried and either in a pocket (with holster) or OWB. The herd has steadily grown and now numbering five. Four are true double action with second strike capability while the fifth is the LCP with a weird Rube Goldberg action that cocks the hammer on recoil like a normal DA/SA but still has the long trigger pull and truly strange double reset instead of the very short stroke crisp trigger of a DA/SA in the SA mode. All are smaller and lighter (except from my Airweight 642) and far easier to carry and conceal than either the larger semis or my snubbies.

Of the herd the most reliable so far have been the Remington RM380 and the Sig P290RS. The only issue with the Beretta Pico is that it does not seem to like wide mouth hollow point ammo.The S&W M&P Bodyguard 380 had a strange habit. If I dropped an empty magazine the slide slammed forward immediately. It has gone back to the mothership and is due back here tomorrow. I hope they solved that issue because other than the premature slide closure it too has been near perfect. The Ruger LCP is kinda an outlier, just not as nice in anyway as the others. It seems to have bad hair days when it doesn't want to feed or eject the very same ammo it liked last time and that double reset is really, really, really, really annoying. The sights are simply pathetic (I don't take off points though since for the intended purpose of the gun sights are kinda superfluous) and overall it just feels cheap. But it is the lightest of the group, reasonably accurate and except on bad hair days reliable.

Looking back on my recent experience the Remington RM380 definitely has gotten the most Walk About, and by a wide margin. It's been the most surprising and overall reliable, accurate and easiest to use, rack, maintain, shoot and conceal. It does have sights that are just barely better than the Ruger LCP's though.

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Sig P290RS with extended 8+1 magazine:
View attachment 825672

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I like what you have, but for me, I can't stand the feel of plastic in my hand. Had a Glock for a while, that was enough for me. The Sig would be awesome, something to think about.

 

[MosinT53Hunter]

MosinT53Hunter

While your Daewoo DP51 has been a reliable pistol for you, there are ergonomic factors involved here that don't work for you (I know as I also have small size hands). As Browning pointed out in his post the bigger question is what do you want this new gun to be used for: home defense, concealed carry, range use, or all of the above? A S&W Model 442 makes for a nice concealed carry gun but typically requires a great deal more practice to become proficient with it. Then there's the limiting factor of having only 5 rounds; a bit of downside for quick reloads. So the Model 442 as a multi-purpose gun kind of falls short of being the ideal choice to fill so many roles.

If it were me I would be looking for a compact or subcompact 9mm. pistol. There are an incredible number to choose from: guns by Glock, S&W, SIG, CZ, FN, Kahr, HK, Ruger, Springfield Armory, Kimber, and Beretta, to name some of the more popular ones.Your best course of action would be to go to a well stocked gun store or a local gun show and literally try as many of the different models on for size. Then if there's a range in your area to see if you can rent some of the different guns you're interested in. This way you can make an informed decision on what really works best for you. And please let us know what you finally decide to go with.

I will, this has given me much food for thought. Have to wait until this Snowmageddon goes away before I can really shop around.

 

[jar]

I like what you have, but for me, I can't stand the feel of plastic in my hand. Had a Glock for a while, that was enough for me. The Sig would be awesome, something to think about.

The Remington is also a metal, aluminum alloy frame. The grip plates as on the Sig are plastic but Remington has an Executive version of the RM380 with wood grip inserts.

 

[Eddietruett]

Have you considered the Kimber K6s? Gives you 6 rounds instead of 5 and is a humpback DA design. I hate humpback DA revolvers as a rule but love my Kimber.
One thing I've recommended when possible is go to a range where you can rent guns and try some different ones out. Might cost a little but a whole lot cheaper than buying
something you don't like and then dumping it at a loss. When choosing a weapon for defense, the number of rounds does not concern me near as much as how well I can shoot the
gun. 1st shot most important of course but follow ups as well. I learned a valuable lesson one day at a range. I enjoy watching people shoot especially some of the young guns with
their new Glocks. They bang away at a 25 foot silhouette target and are lucky to keep all of the shots on the paper. A lady walked in with a tiny little .380, I'm pretty sure it was a Taurus. She had 3 mags loaded. She proceeded to fire all 3 mags in a very fast but controlled fashion at a target on the 25 foot line. She put EVERY bullet in the head and none were near the edge. I would say probably a 3-4" circle. Firing the lowest power gun in the house, she was probably the most dangerous person for an attacker to deal with.

 

[westernrover]

You've presented a quandary between some unusual choices. It almost makes me wonder if you're not in the US. Assuming you have access to everything on the US market, it seems like you could do better than what you've laid out. I can appreciate that you're concerned about carrying a loaded chamber and want a safe trigger mechanism. I also have not been able to come to terms with either a striker-fired or cocked-and-locked gun for pocket carry, even though I always use a holster. I don't have small hands, so I'll have to consider how that might change what I could suggest.

First, I can tell you about my 442. I think it is a quality gun although I had to send it back to S&W to fix some defects. If you study the "revolver check-out" in the revolver section, you can learn to examine a revolver and spot any serious issues in a few minutes of checking. I've found S&W and Ruger to stand behind their products, but it can be a hassle to send the gun away and wait for it to be fixed and come back when you were counting on having it to carry. The 442 is very lightweight and you will feel a lot more recoil than with the DP51. Its very short barrel gives you a short sight radius which makes it too easy to be farther off the target than you want. The barrel offers practically nothing to balance the gun with some weight in front so it is harder to shoot and keep your muzzle on the target. It has a heavy trigger. While it's certainly safe to carry with normal precautions, it can be difficult to master that heavy double-action trigger, especially when the gun is so short and light and easy to move off target. It's really easy to carry and conceal, but shooting it is not easy. The grips it comes with are small and inexpensive. They conceal well, but don't give you a very good handle to hold onto. There is a wide variety of replacement grips which can suit different purposes and I won't suggest any because your hands are different than mine. Whatever grips you might find to suit yourself, the gun will always be short, light, and harder to shoot than a gun that is heavier, longer, or with a trigger that is easier to master.

There are some steel revolvers that are heavier and easier to shoot for a given ammo. The Kimber K6S is one, and the steel S&W like the 640. With a hammer spur, you can find S&W Model 60 or Ruger SP101. There are many threads on people's preferences among these revolvers, but before you work out which one is best for you, be sure a small revolver is what you want. Alternatives might be a slighter larger revolver or an autoloader. The S&W Model 66 or 19 or a Colt Cobra with a short barrel are only a little bigger than the J frames like the 442, and a lot of people find them easier to shoot. Most of the steel guns are .357 Magnum, but shooting that cartridge in them can make them just as difficult as shooting a .38 Special in the aluminum 442. Fortunately, you can shoot .38 Special in the .357 Magnum guns.

I like to shoot .357 Magnum, and that's the reason I moved away from guns like any of the above. Big, heavy guns are so much easier to shoot with any ammo, and with some practice, I'm finding I can draw and get a 3 pound gun on target just as fast. If I were to recommend an autoloader, I'd suggest a big heavy one too. But considering you might be determined to use only a little one and want a DA/SA, DAO, or some kind of action safe for pocket carry in a holster, look at the CZ P-01 and P-07. The P-01 is everything the Daewoo could hope to be and more.

I get the impression that a huge portion of people that are buying new guns for carry are buying striker-fired guns like the G43 and 43X and the Sig P365. I couldn't tell you if these would be safe for carry in a pocket holster. I don't know. It seems like they're basically cocked and unlocked with nothing but a bunch of creep before a light wall and then they fire. I'd carry them or a bigger version of them in a duty holster, but so far not in a pocket holster.

 

[Catpop]

I’ve got 642 and LCP and LC9
Love all three
LCP is most concealable
642 is little bigger, but shoots 38 spc
LC9 is biggest, but shoots 9mm
I carry LCP the most