Question about being an innocent victim when using self-defense as a defense?

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GuyWithQuestions

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I was looking at a question on Yahoo Answers. A girl and her boyfriend were at a bar. The bouncer asks them to leave, so they start leaving. The girlfriend tells the bouncer that he's pathetic and so the bouncer grabs the girl by the arm and pours her own drink over her head. She then spits in his face, and probably because he knows he can't beat the girl he starts to physically beat up the boyfriend. There were some police patrolling the streets outside and the two told them about what happened and they said they weren't going to do anything about it. The girl at Yahoo Answers was asking if she pressed the issue further, if that would be legally considered the bouncer assaulting the boyfriend and if she would be in trouble for spitting in the bouncer's face after he poured the drink on her head.

My question about all this is: what if when the bouncer was attacking the boyfriend, he used self-defense moves on the bouncer and broke the bouncer's arm, or used something like pepper spray on him? You have to be an innocent victim in order to use self-defense as a defense to using force on someone. The boyfriend wasn't the one who spit on the bouncer, but he was with the person who did; and I know if criminal #1 goes with criminal #2 with the intent of committing a crime and the criminal #2 kills someone, criminal #1 could get in legal trouble because he was with criminal #2 with the intent of committing a crime in the first place. But then at the same time, a reasonable and prudent guy doesn't reasonably expect that when he goes to a bar with a girlfriend that she's going to spit on a bouncer's face. He didn't have the intent of causing trouble, and he wasn't involved in the spitting after the bouncer had a drink poured on her head. Or another example, you're walking along with someone, then the other person starts throwing rocks at passing cars. One car stops and a guy with a baseball bat comes running out at both of you. You had "no reasonable expectation beforehand" that the person you were walking with was going to do this. The rock thrower runs in another direction, and the person with a baseball bat is running straight towards you, not the rock thrower. What would you be legally justified in doing in situations like that? No matter how rare and how much you like to stay away from stupid people, everyone has at some point in time in their life happened to be with someone who stupidly offends someone while in public, even if they didn't reasonably know it was going to happen beforehand. Someone gives you a ride, then they start swearing at the car next to them at a traffic light, etc, no matter how rare.

So what would the legal aspects of a situation like the girlfriend/boyfriend/bouncer be? Especially if the boyfriend used like force in self-defense against the bouncer when he started physically beating him? I was just curious?
 
It isn't with the trouble...really!

When the bartender says its closing time, how about if the lady just says:

"See ya around, bub!" or "Goodnight"

There. See how easy that is?:rolleyes:
 
[IANAL]

so the bouncer grabs the girl by the arm and pours her own drink over her head.
Click to expand...
Assuming that events went exactly as described in the OP:

At this point the bouncer has crossed the line from doing his job to assault and battery. Pouring a drink on someone's head and grabbing them by the arm for a verbal insult is not self defense on his part.

Spitting on her part isn't 100% kosher, but since the amount of force he used was so great she's not likely going to see any charges.

The cops are just being typically useless, but considering the circumstances probably assume that the bounce is 100% in the right because a real professional bouncer doesn't use force until he's legally justified to do so.

My advice to the boyfriend is to lawyer up and hope the bar will settle for some cash. Without a police report they won't likely win in civil court and they won't likely get the bouncer prosecuted either.

Oh and start hanging out at classier places.


Had the boyfriend mounted a successful self defense and injured the bouncer he'd have been arrested for assault and battery and he'd have lost in court. The bouncer's story would be spun in his favor and the police, bar owner and other bar patrons would likely take the bouncer's side.

[/IANAL]
 
In the Yahoo Answers scenario given, the girl said there was a security camera. I wonder if that was a fake decoy camera, some places have those, or a real one. If they would have been able to subpeana the video camera tape, what do you think they'd have done if the boyfriend used like force in self-defense when he was beat up?
 
The police don't determine if charges shoud be filed, so of course they declined to "do" anything about it, they didn't witness anything. Their job is to investigate after the boyfriend presses charges for assault and battery, she may also do the same in this particular instance.

The question is silly, don't these people understand they are adults? The police are not their parents, they are not here to protect them from "bad" people, they are the enforcement and investigative arm of the municipality, county, state, or government by which they are employed.

The bouncer was just likely doing his job, maybe he shouldn't be doing this particular job but that's another question, the poster does not say why they were asked to leave. It's kind of funny, (not that they should have been assaulted) you can almost see her face after she decided to be rude and the guy dumps the drink on her head, "sputter" but I have rights and freedom of speech, I'm a girl!!!! Yes, we have freedom speech but it doesn't mean that you won't occasionally get bopped on the nose (figuratively or literally) for saying something to the wrong person. Guys for the most part understand this, this is why the boyfriend was just going to leave.....
 
Oh and start hanging out at classier places.
Click to expand...

I might add that they also should probably cut back on the sauce or lay off of it entirely. The OP does not go into what got them asked to leave, but if the woman in question is not the sort to normally call people names and spit on them, then it might indicate an issue regarding her handling of alcohol. I'm kinda doubting this couple was quite sober and well behaved in the bar, and they asked them to leave because the bar is just a bunch of meanies.

An easy way to keep from running into trouble like that mentioned in this thread would be to keep your drinking to very moderate amounts. If your sobriety becomes iffy, you'll have a hard time getting police, prosecutors, judges, and juries to accept your version of what happened while you were under the influence.
 
depends on the state, in some states, an agent of a premises that owns a liquor license may use up to but not including deadly force to remove someone from the property for any reason
 
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