Question - does anyone have solid knowledge of cases gone bad due to modified safties?

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armoredman

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I ask as some safety modifications in the past were very "frowned upon", like removing the mag safety from a Browning HP, or modifying the trigger safety on a Glock, to anywhere in the middle. I am not a lawyer and don't have the greatest Google-Fu for researching legal items - anyone here with experience on this subject? I'm thinking the initial retort of the legal team is likely to be that no case has ever hinged on such an item, but I don't know.
 
All trials are determined on the basis of the totality of the evidence, and no one has, or could have, interviewed all of the jurors who have taken part on all of the trials in the country to try to find out what factors may have swayed them, or to what extent.

And of course there are all of the cases that have been settled out of court, usually with outcomes that are never made public.

You won't find the answers you are seeking.
 
Kleanbore, (had some 22LR shotshells marked Kleanbore in the 70s), I was asking for anyone who had personal knowledge, not an exhaustive listing by any means, of course, that all, nothing intense.:)
entropy, Massad Ayoob is a very busy man, I would hate to bother him.
Thank you for your replies.
 
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....I'm thinking the initial retort of the legal team is likely to be that no case has ever hinged on such an item, but I don't know.
It seems that when these sorts of questions come up folks are looking for more certainty and clarity than is likely in the real world. Very few cases hinge on one factor, and the effect of any identifiable factor in any particular case will depend on the exact circumstances. There are too many variables.

But even if in a particular case, given its unique posture, the disabling of a safety device might not hurt one in the legal aftermath of an act of violence against another human and which the actor claims was justified, it will not help.

But on this audio attorney Andrew Branca is interviewed and explains why modification which affect the firing functions of a gun are a bad idea when you plan to carry the gun or use it for self defense. Mr. Branca is an attorney in Massachusetts who has specialized in self defense law since 1997.

The interview is somewhat long but very much worth listening to.

And Marty Hayes provide an interesting article on the subject here, in the September 2013 edition of the Armed Citizens' Legal Defense Network Journal.

So for my part, I wouldn't do it.
 
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All trials are determined on the basis of the totality of the evidence, and no one has, or could have, interviewed all of the jurors who have taken part on all of the trials in the country to try to find out what factors may have swayed them, or to what extent.

And of course there are all of the cases that have been settled out of court, usually with outcomes that are never made public.

You won't find the answers you are seeking.

Ah, OP ... tell me you didn't expect some typical lawyer-speak responses on this one ... After all, just because there's been no cases ever publicized where a modified gun safety has ever led to a conviction doesn't mean it hasn't happened! (Just like the mythical hand-loads used for self-defense or other handgun modifications are a no-no because those will surely get you in trouble with the law even if you have a righteous self-defense use of lethal force.)
 
I did, of course, especially on this board, but once they get past that there is usually some good info passed around by those in the know. I was merely looking for some info, not a gold standard or gold bound Iron Rule. :) He gave me the info I was looking for, since there are no absolutes beyond the fact that you and I will absolutely die someday. ;)
 
After all, just because there's been no cases ever publicized where a modified gun safety has ever led to a conviction doesn't mean it hasn't happened!
That is an indisputable fact, but it is a lot less important than the fact that something that has important is of no importance if the exposure to such an occurrence is low.

That'a basic risk analysis, and it has absolutely nothing to do with"layer=speak".
 
But even if in a particular case, given its unique posture, the disabling of a safety device might not hurt one in the legal aftermath of an act of violence against another human and which the actor claims was justified, it will not help.
More likely to be a factor in a negligent discharge case than in a self-defense case.
 
(Just like the mythical hand-loads used for self-defense or other handgun modifications are a no-no because those will surely get you in trouble with the law...

An important thing to grasp -- maybe THE important thing to grasp -- is that none of these matters that we discuss in similar conversations "...will ...get you in trouble with the law."

Meaning, carrying handloads isn't against the law in any state. Carrying a gun with a modified or removed safety isn't against the law in any state. Carrying a huge Desert Eagle to the mall, or defending yourself with a registered full-auto M-16 with the "Punisher" death's head engraved on it in blaze orange are not against the law. And none of those things appear written in any state's laws regarding factors which support or preempt a self-defense claim in trials arising from violent encounters.

(Edit: With any obvious exceptions for states where a particular gun might be illegal to own, obviously.)

There are two basic factors which may have effects on your case if and when you shoot someone in self defense:

1) What your decisions to carry might indicate to those who will decide whether or not to prosecute you -- generally based on what they feel they can get a jury to believe about you based on those decisions.

2) (In the case of handloads), some rules regarding presentation of evidence in your own defense.

The first is very fuzzy and nearly impossible to quantify because it is largely based on impressions given to and accepted by jurors who will decide guilt on facts, without any overt mention of all of the intangible factors that lead them to feel as they did toward the defendant. But, this element plays a vastly important role in any criminal trial. Grandma in her apron, firing through her front door with a single-shot .410 shotgun and wounding someone she thought was breaking in might get a more favorable result from a jury than 250 lb. biker Eddie, covered with tats, who shot someone with his AK-47 clone with "Zombie Killer" painted on it, even if the guy he shot had just kicked in his bedroom door and the shooting is prima fascie more clearly in line with a black letter law definition of self defense.

The second is a lot easier to qualify because rules of evidence are pretty easily stated and relatively concrete but, in regards to handloads in self-defense cases, appears to actually come up in a vanishingly small number of cases, due to how many details have to stack up just right to make those factors important in a given trial. (Even the famous Bias case that gets mentioned every time the subject is discussed did not actually hinge on, nor even clearly illustrate, handloads not providing admissible forensic evidence.)

... even if you have a righteous self-defense use of lethal force.
And here again we have the cart before the horse.

We like to jump to the assumption that something IS a righteous use of lethal force and then we critique the contributing factors based on that assumption. Kind of like we might say, "I know this animal is a fish. The fact that it has horns and hooves, wears a big bell around it's neck, and the farmer milks it twice a day just means the jury made a bad call."

No use of force or deadly force is "righteous" or lawful, or justified, or whatever else we might call it, until other people decide it is so. These factors are ways we might stack the deck in our favor to get a more favorable outcome, or rather, how we might avoid things that push others to decide our actions were not acceptable under the law.
 
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"...Massad Ayoob is a very busy man..." He's actually a really friendly guy who will likely respond quickly. He's been known to be one of the guys on some forums too.
The greatest Google-Fu on the planet probably wouldn't help anyway. You'd be searching hordes of case law files and maybe newspaper articles from all over the U.S. A simple Yahoo search for "case law files" turns up 61.1 million sites.
 
The Branca interview is excellent, and everyone who is interested in this or related issues should listen to it carefully.

He makes one incidental comment that I would like to emphasize. He mentions that something (he speaks here of a modification to a safety) may actually make an unintentional discharge more likely, legal risks aside.

I think that's an important point. It is why I would choose to not have a pre--WWII S&W .44 or .45 around. That old spring-driven hammer block has been known to fail. My concern has absolutely nothing to do with whether it might come up in a courtroom.

If I did have one I would certainly not load six chambers except at the range, but someone else might.

I would not want someone else unaware of my modifications to rely on a BHP mag disconnect that I had disabled or on a 1911 grip safety that I had pinned, either.

And I am not looking primarily at the legal aspects.
 
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"...Massad Ayoob is a very busy man..." He's actually a really friendly guy who will likely respond quickly. He's been known to be one of the guys on some forums too.
The greatest Google-Fu on the planet probably wouldn't help anyway. You'd be searching hordes of case law files and maybe newspaper articles from all over the U.S. A simple Yahoo search for "case law files" turns up 61.1 million sites.
The google-fu for this would be expidited a thousandfold by access to WestLaw.
 
I'm assuming that's a pay-to-play website? Besides, I'm am not a lawyer, nor did I do pre-law in college, or ever play a lawyer on TV, so I'd probably think "eureka" and find out I was dead wrong. :)
I've read some of Mas' books, would love to meet him and take his classes, can't afford that or get the time, oh well. :)
 
Post #2 by Kleanbore points out is a lack of post trial interviews of jurors.

Basicly we have anecdotes on some high profile cases that went to trial. No real data on typical Defensive Gun Use DGU cases why prosecutors charged or did not charge, why grand juries returned bill or no bill, why trial judges dismissed charges or proceeded to trial, why juries convicted or acquited. Except in cases that went to trial and attracted media attention or well-known expert witnesses.

Glenn E. Meyers (PhD Trinity U) has published the results of mock trials presenting the same self-defense case to mock juries randomly selected from students at university, but with six different weapons. It is interesting reading and gives points to ponder.

Meyer, G. E., (2009). Will it hurt me in court: weapons issues and the fears of the legally armed citizen. The Jury Expert, American Society of Trial Consultants, vol 21 no 5, Sept 2009, p 29-42.
http://www.thejuryexpert.com/2009/0...s-and-the-fears-of-the-legally-armed-citizen/
http://www.thejuryexpert.com/wp-content/uploads/MeyerTJESep2009Volume21No5.pdf

I checked the links and they still work.
 
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