Question on home made AOLs

[Gordon]

I was visiting an old gentleman in northern Oregon and he showed me before I left two pocket knives he made up with unique tiny single shot tilting barrel .22 actions attached to one side of the grip slabs . Instantly thought and told him they were probably a Federal violation and refused his offer to take them as he had no use for them as he is bed ridden at 84 . I am actually reluctant to show the pictures I took of them until I get answers , good straight answers, about the legality of such. Can I form 1 them ? How could I have possesion of them until approved ? Do I need to form one them ? Can I AOW them ? How could one own such a unique and quite talented bit of old machine work legally ? Oregon has no restriction on ownership or transfer at this time. I know retired BATF agents but they could not answer me . Thank you.

 

[milemaker13]

Aol? Aow?

 

[pdsmith505]

If they aren't registered already, legally, there's nothing you can do to make them legal.

If they are registered... you're in luck, Form 4 transfers on AOW's are only $5

If you decided you wanted to make some of your own, they would require a $200 Form 1, to include all the marking requirements.

 

[Gordon]

"If you decided you wanted to make some of your own, they would require a $200 Form 1, to include all the marking requirements."
aha ! My son knows about form one and I guess a pair as a set could work on one registry. Thank you for the answer, I can smell it's correct . I will now run that leed thru other official channels . They would be worth $200 to me and I could do the engraving requirement my self as the non barrel and lock work parts are formed brass from castings. I wonder how fast Form 1s are moving these days after properly filed ?

 

[Gordon]

Aol? Aow?

I composed it late at night and I am on AOL , so duh, a senoir moment !

 

[pdsmith505]

"If you decided you wanted to make some of your own, they would require a $200 Form 1, to include all the marking requirements."
aha ! My son knows about form one and I guess a pair as a set could work on one registry. Thank you for the answer, I can smell it's correct . I will now run that leed thru other official channels . They would be worth $200 to me and I could do the engraving requirement my self as the non barrel and lock work parts are formed brass from castings. I wonder how fast Form 1s are moving these days after properly filed ?

Each new firearm would require it's own Form 1.

Remember, the ones that are already made cannot be legally registered by you on a Form 1.

E-filed Form 1's are taking about a month these days.

 

[1KPerDay]

I composed it late at night and I am on AOL , so duh, a senoir moment !

AOL's still a thing??

 

[CapnMac]

AOL's still a thing?

LoL. Yes. It's a bit like a tattoo, it's nearly permanent and does not age well, and is extremely difficult to remove (ask Scott Adams [])

 

[CapnMac]

Ok, perhaps I'm think here, but, it was my understanding that only the MG Registry was closed. That SBS, SBR, Suppressors, and AOW were still permitted, and just needed the correct Forms.

If so, wouldn't the burden be on the orginal maker to register them, and then transfer on the correct Form afterward?

Or, am I as wrong as a left-handed rubber swab handle?

 

[pdsmith505]

Ok, perhaps I'm think here, but, it was my understanding that only the MG Registry was closed. That SBS, SBR, Suppressors, and AOW were still permitted, and just needed the correct Forms.

Don't forget Destructive Devices. But yes, the only NFA firearms that can't be made new for civilian use are Machine Guns.

If so, wouldn't the burden be on the orginal maker to register them, and then transfer on the correct Form afterward?

Yup. You get your approved Form 1 back, then make the NFA item. After that, they can be transferred on a Form 4.

But, if you or someone else makes the NFA firearm before getting an approved Form 1, that's illegal. The old man in this scenario presumably has two unregistered AOW's (otherwise the OP would just file two Form 4's and pay 10 bucks to get them transferred). Can't legally register an illegally made NFA firearm. Can't legally transfer an unregistered NFA firearm.

 

[CapnMac]

The old man in this scenario presumably has two unregistered AOW's (

Ok, that was (also) what I was trying to remember. If Old Guy files as if he just made them, then, they would be registered, correct?

 

[Gordon]

They are kewl but if I want a $200 stamp it will be for a nice suppressor. So his heirs if he has any will have to deal with it. I like small hand guns , but smooth bore .22 shorts don't interest me anymore . I guess I shouldn't put the pictures on the knife forums

 

[pdsmith505]

Ok, that was (also) what I was trying to remember. If Old Guy files as if he just made them, then, they would be registered, correct?

I would think that, aside from this thread existing on the internet, it would be unlikely that if the old guy filed the ATF would have any reason to look into the matter of whether the AOW's already existed.

However, strictly speaking, the old man has (again, assuming they aren't already registered) two felonies sitting there with him. Even if he managed to get them registered, he still made and possessed the AOW's without having properly registered them. The crime doesn't go away.

 

[armoredman]

Why are they AOW? I knew some knives made with pistol barrels built in that are traded like any other firearm. I am rather ignorant of much of NFA compared to any serious player, but are they smooth bore? If rifled barrels, wouldn't they just qualify as home made pistols? Seriously curious.

 

[pdsmith505]

Why are they AOW? I knew some knives made with pistol barrels built in that are traded like any other firearm. I am rather ignorant of much of NFA compared to any serious player, but are they smooth bore? If rifled barrels, wouldn't they just qualify as home made pistols? Seriously curious.

To answer the question, we have to first look at the definition of "Any Other Weapon":

(e) Any other weapon
The term “any other weapon” means any weapon or device capable of being concealed on the person from which a shot can be discharged through the energy of an explosive, a pistol or revolver having a barrel with a smooth bore designed or redesigned to fire a fixed shotgun shell, weapons with combination shotgun and rifle barrels 12 inches or more, less than 18 inches in length, from which only a single discharge can be made from either barrel without manual reloading, and shall include any such weapon which may be readily restored to fire. Such term shall not include a pistol or a revolver having a rifled bore, or rifled bores, or weapons designed, made, or intended to be fired from the shoulder and not capable of firing fixed ammunition.

Ok, so, any firearm capable of being concealed on the person, except pistols/revolvers with rifled bores. So now we have to look at what the definition of a "pistol" and "rifle":

(29) The term “handgun” means—
(A) a firearm which has a short stock and is designed to be held and fired by the use of a single hand; and
(B) any combination of parts from which a firearm described in subparagraph (A) can be assembled.

Pistol. A weapon originally designed, made, and intended to fire a projectile (bullet) from one or more barrels when held in one hand, and having (a) a chamber(s) as an integral part(s) of, or permanently aligned with, the bore(s); and (b) a short stock designed to be gripped by one hand and at an angle to and extending below the line of the bore(s).

Revolver. A projectile weapon, of the pistol type, having a breechloading chambered cylinder so arranged that the cocking of the hammer or movement of the trigger rotates it and brings the next cartridge in line with the barrel for firing.

As pictured below, a knife-gun does not meet the definition of a pistol. There is no stock that extends at an angle below the line of the bore.

Further, the ATF has long held that disguised firearms do not meet the definition of a handgun/pistol/revolver, and are consequently considered AOWs. See page 7 of the "NFA Handbook".



Interestingly enough, pen guns that have to be twisted into an angle to fire are considered pistols, not AOW's:

 

[Gordon]

At his age and condition he is not concerned with trivial laws he was never aware of. His secret will die with him. I am not interest in getting tangled up in this for a novelty, I told him I felt grateful to see his fine metal work but told him about their legal standing with basically no recourse incase his heirs get them (yes he does have relatives far away) . One gun , an old Case double bladed jack knife has a dropping barrel with a ball detent to lock up barrel. The other is a 1950s Italian Stelletto (and so marked) with the same small brass lockwork and a screw in barrel with a flared cannon type muzzle. Cute but being US law has gone down a rabbit hole which makes the penalty to have such things worse than doing many dreadful violent crimes I have kept away from such novelties . A sad situation IMHO

 

[dogtown tom]

……... but being US law has gone down a rabbit hole

It went down the rabbit hole before your old friend was born....the National Firearms Act of 1934.

….which makes the penalty to have such things worse than doing many dreadful violent crimes....

Well, the penalty isn't in having "such things", it's for failing to pay the required Federal tax.
Not many "dreadful violent crimes" in Federal law have a lesser penalty than the maximum of ten years for an NFA violation.
Violations of other Federal tax codes are punished pretty much the same as NFA violations.

 

[edwardware]

I wonder if legally sufficient denaturing of the firearm is possible while preserving the art. If you have a welder, you might render it not-a-firearm in a way that preserves the appearance.

 

[Gordon]

I wonder if legally sufficient denaturing of the firearm is possible while preserving the art. If you have a welder, you might render it not-a-firearm in a way that preserves the appearance.

, thought about that, but I think the brass machined casting is the receiver. And in Ca.and who knows where else forcible rape is less than 10 years and so is most manslaughter. I get it the gubbamint doesn't like to be shorted on tribute.

 

[Gordon]

It went down the rabbit hole before your old friend was born....the National Firearms Act of 1934.



Well, the penalty isn't in having "such things", it's for failing to pay the required Federal tax.
Not many "dreadful violent crimes" in Federal law have a lesser penalty than the maximum of ten years for an NFA violation.
Violations of other Federal tax codes are punished pretty much the same as NFA violations.

Not true around where I lived previously 45 years (Ca.) , I saw many get 6-8 for manslaughter (murder) and rape and child molestation and grand thefts of course. And for the minutia of the ATF rules the full weight of the feds :, I consider that sad and sick and so do a couple of retired ATF agents I know as friends ( . The man was born in 1934 ! Like I said , glad I got to play with them for the afternoon, even shot them (first time in 15 years he said !) with old remington .22 shorts .

 

[dogtown tom]

Not true around where I lived previously 45 years (Ca.) , I saw many get 6-8 for manslaughter (murder) and rape and child molestation and grand thefts of course..

And those are STATE crimes. As I noted above: Not many "dreadful violent crimes" in Federal law have a lesser penalty than the maximum of ten years for an NFA violation.

And for the minutia of the ATF rules the full weight of the feds :, I consider that sad and sick and so do a couple of retired ATF agents I know as friends ( . The man was born in 1934 ! Like I said , glad I got to play with them for the afternoon, even shot them (first time in 15 years he said !) with old remington .22 shorts

Sorry, but age isn't a valid excuse. The NFA applies to him as much as it does to me (62yrs old) and to anyone else. It would be no different than me making a homemade silencer and not paying the tax. Now I sympathize if he was ignorant of what the NFA regulates, but I kinda doubt he bothered to check if what he was making was legal. While I believe that the NFA/GCA violate the Second Amendment, the Supreme Court disagrees. Until they rule otherwise we have to abide by such laws.

Your friend could have lawfully made that AOW firearm, but chose not to. That's not the fault of ATF or anyone else. Its on him.

 

[Gordon]

And those are STATE crimes. As I noted above: Not many "dreadful violent crimes" in Federal law have a lesser penalty than the maximum of ten years for an NFA violation.



Sorry, but age isn't a valid excuse. The NFA applies to him as much as it does to me (62yrs old) and to anyone else. It would be no different than me making a homemade silencer and not paying the tax. Now I sympathize if he was ignorant of what the NFA regulates, but I kinda doubt he bothered to check if what he was making was legal. While I believe that the NFA/GCA violate the Second Amendment, the Supreme Court disagrees. Until they rule otherwise we have to abide by such laws.

Your friend could have lawfully made that AOW firearm, but chose not to. That's not the fault of ATF or anyone else. Its on him.

Sounds like the raps of Federal Prosecutors. . Sure they are technically correct. I obey laws because I don't want the hassle. I was more than once an expert witness for the defence in NFA trials in San Francisco Federal Court. I spent alot of money trying to Change hearing protection devices and short barrel rifle and SG laws, to no avail. Looks like those stupid laws will never change , oh well I am not wasting my time anymore in my old age of 73
.

 

[dogtown tom]

….. I obey laws because I don't want the hassle....
.

Wow.

 

[Speedo66]

I agree, I follow the law because.....

Been in several jails, never felt comfortable in any of them, nor could I put up with the smells. And I was just depositing someone.

So, call me a wuss, but I have no interest in ever setting foot in one again, or doing anything that might cause that to happen.