questions about grip, holster presentations and support hand

[westernrover]

I've been thinking about and practicing to improve the way I take an initial grip on a concealed carry handgun, present it and use my support hand.

I'm using a strong-side holster that holds the grip close to my body for good concealment. It makes getting the thumb on the inside a challenge compared to a duty holster where there is plenty of room to get the hand around the grip. To get my thumb inside the gun, it looks like I have two choices:

1. jam the thumb down between the gun and the hip from above
2. slide the thumb in from behind

Sliding onto the grip from behind seems to work the most consistently, but requires I clear the concealment garment with my support hand.

Pushing my hand down onto the grip from above can be done after I use the gun hand to pull the concealment garment up, but I sometimes stub my thumb on something that keeps it from getting under the gun.

I'm trying to get a full shooting grip including my thumb on the gun before I begin to pull it up from the holster. Is it better to do that, or is it better to put a flat hand over the gun, curl the last three fingers under the grip, and pull the gun part way up out of the holster before closing the thumb and forefinger onto the frame? Do you even re-wrap your thumb after the gun has begun to move out?

My next question is about the presentation. I first learned to draw and push the gun out into the low-ready position, lock the elbow and wrist, raise it to the sight line between my dominant eye and the target by pivoting the arm at the shoulder and fire, one-handed. I see people teaching a 1, 2, 3 method where the gun is raised to the pectoral muscle or sternum against the chest, the support hand is joined, and the gun is shoved out toward the target, pivoting at the shoulder, elbow, and wrist. Why do I want to bring the gun up against my chest? What is the purpose of this?

If I were to shoot up-close where I could not reach full extension, I could shoot one-handed from quarter hip or three-quarter hip positions. If I can reach full extension, I could use the support hand for more stability. With the 1, 2, 3 method I just described, the support hand is usually joined to the gun hand at the chest. I have a long beard that covers my sternum. If I did that, I have a good chance of clapping my beard together with the gun before shoving the whole mess forward. Where else in the presentation is a good place to bring the hands together?

With the hands extended, if the bore axis is in line with the gun hand's forearm then it will be at some angle oblique to the support hand's forearm. Is it better to maintain the bore axis alignment with the forearm or is it better to bend the wrist so the bore is at an equally oblique angle to both forearms?

I've studied Isoceles, Weaver, and Chapman. Because I am cross-dominant, if I use the Isoceles method, I must cock the gun hand wrist to the right of the forearm's axis in order to line up the sights with my left eye. Even if I turn the head to bring the left eye farther to the right, there will still be a horizontal parallax unless I move the axis of the sight in line with my eye and thus take it out of alignment with the forearm. So long as the support hand is there, it seems a reasonable trade-off for moving the bore out of alignment, but if the support hand is not available, this method seems to be disadvantageous as the grip and wrist are repeatedly trained to put the axis out of alignment.

With the Weaver or Chapman, I can tilt my head to the right, even bringing my cheek down into a weld on the bicep so that my left eye is aligned with the forearm and sights. Alternately, I can cock the head so the chin rests on the bicep. Either way, this is awkward. Although it may be functional for bullseye shooting, the tilted head and cheek weld have a severe penalty in situational awareness.

With one-hand shooting that I have always done before, my gun arm is not across my chest, but it is open. I do not stand square to the target, but more perpendicular like an archer or duelist. With this method, it is very easy to align the bore axis, my forearm, and my left eye on the same vertical plane. It is not rigid at all and I can probably cover an arc of at least 300 degrees without moving my feet, but as I sweep the arm across my chest to the left, the head must keep in alignment by bringing the cheek down onto the bicep as in the Chapman. Of course, it is better to pivot on the feet and keep perpendicular to the target the way an archer must. Also, this technique does not accommodate the support hand.

Let me restate my questions:

Is it better jam the thumb down between your body and the gun grip or better to slide it in from behind?

Is it even better to have the full grip on the gun or to put a flat hand over the gun, curl the last three fingers under the grip, and pull the gun part way up out of the holster before closing the thumb and forefinger onto the frame?

Do you re-wrap your thumb after the gun has begun to move out?

In the 1, 2, 3 method of presentation, what is the purpose of bringing the gun up against my chest?

For a two-handed presentation, where in the presentation is the best place to bring the hands together where I won't catch my beard?

In a stance, is it better to maintain the bore axis alignment with the forearm or is it better to bend the wrist so the bore is at an equally oblique angle to both forearms?

Is it better to tilt the gun out of alignment with the forearm for a two-hand stance, or is it better to tilt or cock the head to close the horizontal parallax from a cross-dominant eye?

 

[9mmepiphany]

My next question is about the presentation. I first learned to draw and push the gun out into the low-ready position, lock the elbow and wrist, raise it to the sight line between my dominant eye and the target by pivoting the arm at the shoulder and fire, one-handed.

Why do I want to bring the gun up against my chest? What is the purpose of this?

Let me start with the 2nd easiest question first...the easiest is where the two hands meet

The presentation that you are using is commonly referred to as "Bowling." This, along with "Casting" (bringing the gun over and down on the target) is taught to be avoided as it slows sight acquisition (due to over swing or slowing as you approach level) and breaking the first shot (due to limitation of prepping the trigger on the push out)

The purpose of bringing the gun up "against" your chest is multi-fold.
1. Avoids Bowling
2. Is the same motion as used when firing from Retention
3. Correctly aligns the gun for the Push Out which allows quicker sight alignment with the target
4. Allows accurate shots before reaching full extension

For a two-handed presentation, where in the presentation is the best place to bring the hands together where I won't catch my beard?

Where your hands naturally meet when you clap. This is often called your Workspace...but I prefer your Sphere of Dexterity

Is it better to tilt the gun out of alignment with the forearm for a two-hand stance, or is it better to tilt or cock the head to close the horizontal parallax from a cross-dominant eye?

It is better to tilt your head over the bring the eye into alignment with the sights

Is it even better to have the full grip on the gun or to put a flat hand over the gun, curl the last three fingers under the grip, and pull the gun part way up out of the holster before closing the thumb and forefinger onto the frame?

I'm not sure what you mean by "flat hand over the gun"

I drive the web of my hand down and forward into the tang of the frame and snatch the gun out of the holster with the lower three fingers; my thumb is up alongside the slide. As the gun clears, my trigger finger indexes on the frame and the gripping fingers pull the grip into the palm of my hand. I don't close my thumb on the frame at all, ...otherwise it would block my support hand from getting a high grip

With one-hand shooting that I have always done before, my gun arm is not across my chest, but it is open. I do not stand square to the target, but more perpendicular like an archer or duelist.

I've found it faster and easier to just drop the support hand and maintain consistency between grips and alignment

 

[FL-NC]

Grip with the strong hand should be established before the handgun clears the holster, period. If the holster position makes this difficult with practice, consider a new holster. The weak hand grip should be fully anchored in no later than when the gun is moving to full extension/presentation. Once the gun is at full presentation and sight picture has been achieved, rounds should be going downrange- even if your grip isn't perfect- this isn't a time to make adjustments. Remember that you have the rest of your life to do this last part. Perfect practice makes perfect.

 

[labnoti]

When you say the grip should be established before the gun clears the holster, are you also fully establishing the grip before the gun starts to move, or just before the muzzle clears?

 

[westernrover]

Let me start with the 2nd easiest question first...the easiest is where the two hands meet

The presentation that you are using is commonly referred to as "Bowling." This, along with "Casting" (bringing the gun over and down on the target) is taught to be avoided as it slows sight acquisition (due to over swing or slowing as you approach level) and breaking the first shot (due to limitation of prepping the trigger on the push out)

The purpose of bringing the gun up "against" your chest is multi-fold.
1. Avoids Bowling
2. Is the same motion as used when firing from Retention
3. Correctly aligns the gun for the Push Out which allows quicker sight alignment with the target
4. Allows accurate shots before reaching full extension

Thank you. When I first read this, I thought that you're still bowling, just closer to your chest. But if you bowl, pivoting from the shoulder, there is no positive stop or index near sight alignment and the result will be necessarily slowing or over swing and return. Pivoting instead at the shoulder and elbow there is a positive stop once you have your "dukes up." (although I think that's higher than necessary, I see some people doing that). You also have an index, which is:

Where your hands naturally meet when you clap....

That's where the forearm bowling or underhand motion can stop. But I also understand the muzzle can be up in this motion so it's already on target.

I'm not sure what you mean by "flat hand over the gun"

I drive the web of my hand down and forward into the tang of the frame and snatch the gun out of the holster with the lower three fingers; my thumb is up alongside the slide. As the gun clears, my trigger finger indexes on the frame and the gripping fingers pull the grip into the palm of my hand. I don't close my thumb on the frame at all, ...otherwise it would block my support hand from getting a high grip

How do you get your thumb up alongside the slide? Especially when the slide is alongside your body in a concealment holster. From which direction does the thumb come onto the slide? Do you get the thumb in position before the gun starts to move out of the holster or is your thumb sticking up, hitchhiking, and then you push it down after the draw?

I'm gripping a revolver, but I have a 1911 here too so I can follow you. With the revolver, I don't want the parallel thumb grip because it puts my support hand thumb too close to the cylinder gap. I think a good technique is to have the gun hand thumb down on the middle finger and the support hand thumb crossed on top of the gun thumb, pointing up.

 

[9mmepiphany]

I thought that you're still bowling
...That's where the forearm bowling or underhand motion can stop

I'm not sure if we're mis-understanding each other or just talking pass each other. I might have left something out in my description as I assumed you were referring to videos you had watched.

From the position where the gun is next to your chest it doesn't move down to bowl, but moves up to eye level and straight out toward the target. That is the push out, are you familiar with that term?

The hands come together just as the trigger guard clears your chest, about 1/3 of the way towards full extension...where your hands would normally meet when clapping...not out in front at extension. That is commonly referred to as "Clapping like a seal", but is usually a common error during reloading instruction

I'm gripping a revolver

I considered this, but thought that you would have mentioned it initially in your OP...because drawing a revolver optimally uses a completely different technique.

When drawing a revolver, you shouldn't be coming down on it at all...due to the lack of the tang as a stop...but should be scooping the grip out of the holster.

It then comes up to your chest before being driven out toward the target, picking up the sights about 1/2 way out. The hands still meet at the same place as the muzzle clears the chest and you start the trigger prep as the sights come unto the target. Optimally the shot breaks as your arms reach full extension

 

[westernrover]

I was just referring to the way the gun is raised. To raise the gun, the hand has to come up from the holster. In the "bowling" method, the hand comes up in a wide arc as the arm pivots at the shoulder. I think I've heard that referred to as the "Filipino" technique. Otherwise, the hand is still raised in a bowling-like arc, just closer to the chest and pivoting with the shoulder and elbow. I understand why that's better. The hand-clap position provides a positive place for the arc to stop and the push out begins.

When drawing a revolver, you shouldn't be coming down on it at all...due to the lack of the tang as a stop...but should be scooping the grip out of the holster.

It then comes up to your chest before being driven out toward the target, picking up the sights about 1/2 way out. The hands still meet at the same place as the muzzle clears the chest and you start the trigger prep as the sights come unto the target. Optimally the shot breaks as your arms reach full extension

Describe "scooping the grip out of the holster" more. What I've found is that pushing my hand down on the backstrap doesn't work because I stub my thumb. What does seem to be working is to swing my hand from behind the gun, sliding my thumb horizontally under the grip, wrapping the grip and squeezing with my three lower fingers. My index finger is on the holster where it will be just above the trigger guard when I draw. It is the full grip I will fire with.

I can see if it were a three o'clock holster with a butt-forward cant I could draw with a forward stroke. My concealment holster rides at 2 o'clock and requires drawing the gun toward the rear. It may not be the ideal race-gun outfit, but it's a trade-off for concealment. So I'm clearing the holster with the elbow back. The next thing I do is raise the muzzle into the quarter-hip position. From there, previously I would extend the arm straight and raise it so the sights were aligned on target. But you're saying it's better to bring the hands together in the place where I would clap and then push out.

I'm still working out where to put my thumbs in the two-handed grip. I know three techniques:

1. parallel thumbs with the support thumb below and parallel to the gun thumb
2. support thumb crossed over perpendicular to the gun thumb
3. support thumb across the backstrap

1. puts the support thumb-tip too close to the gap blast and it pushes the gun thumb up high just under the cylinder release. Is this where that thumb would be in a one-hand grip? One good thing about this grip is the support index finger is cradling the trigger guard and the lower three fingers wrap over the gun hand's three fingers.

2. allows the gun thumb to be down against the middle finger. Is that better or is it better that it be parallel with the bore? With this grip, the four fingers of the support hand wrap around the three fingers of the gun hand. There isn't really room for the pinky, so it slips underneath the grips.

3. allows any position for the gun thumb and allows the four support fingers to be in either grip, that is with the index finger cradling the trigger guard and the remaining fingers three-on-three, or with the pinky under the butt.

 

[westernrover]

Look at this video for an example:



At 7:16 (note that he's shooting left-handed) he has his thumbs parallel and the tip is too close to the gap blast, but the gun doesn't fire. Instead, the video cuts and at 7:18 he's shown with the support thumb across the backstrap when he fires.

 

[9mmepiphany]

Otherwise, the hand is still raised in a bowling-like arc, just closer to the chest and pivoting with the shoulder and elbow. I understand why that's better. The hand-clap position provides a positive place for the arc to stop and the push out begins.

Either I'm not describing it clearly or you're visualizing it differently...reading it again, we might be saying the same thing and I'm not hearing what you are saying

The gun isn't moving in a a bowling-like arc. It is moving straight up as high as it can go and then driven/pushed straight forward...rising to met the support hand and come up under the dominate eye...with the muzzle already pointing at the target. It is taught as coming straight up the chest until it is at eye level before being pushed out...this is to reinforce getting it to eye level close to the front of the chest to allow a longer push out to learn to prep the trigger

My concealment holster rides at 2 o'clock and requires drawing the gun toward the rear.

Another little thing left out of the OP that really changes the advice that is applicable

This should make it easier. You are pulling "back" with your elbow...I'd pull back to my armpit... then you can push it out

1. parallel thumbs with the support thumb below and parallel to the gun thumb
2. support thumb crossed over perpendicular to the gun thumb
3. support thumb across the backstrap

There are very good shooters who use #1 and other good shooters the use #2. None of them use #3...and likely haven't since the 80s...as it compromises contact with the stock with the support hand. I personally use #2...not because of where my thumb is, but because of how I apply pressure in my grip

1. puts the support thumb-tip too close to the gap blast and it pushes the gun thumb up high just under the cylinder release. Is this where that thumb would be in a one-hand grip?

I float my shooting hand thumb when shooting one-handed

2. With this grip, the four fingers of the support hand wrap around the three fingers of the gun hand. There isn't really room for the pinky, so it slips underneath the grips.

My support hand pinky rides atop the shooting hand pinky. My support hand index finger comes up underneath the trigger guard

Describe "scooping the grip out of the holster" more.

Your hand comes up from underneath and the lower three finger scoop the handle out of the holster

 

[luzyfuerza]

A visual representation might be worth more than more words: