Questions on Saiga Rifles.

[Paladin_Hammer]

Hey guys, I'm back! For those of you who know what that means, its that my meager intelligence concerning "Evil Rifles" is dying to be fed.

So I was at a shop yesterday and saw basically this: http://www.raacfirearms.com/Saiga.htm

My interest was perked the moment I saw the gun. A "sporter" AK? It's like saying "The Kansas City Chiefs are a Football Team"! It doesn't make sense!

However, after looking around on the web, I'm almost sold on Saiga's. But I've got to know:

If I put a stock with a pistol grip on it (skeleton stock), does that mean it violates the import laws? 922rr or something? If I converted one to accept a pistol grip and hi-cap mags, following one of the many guides available online, would I be breaking the law (Federal, BATF laws that is)?

Also, if I did convert one, is it possible to simply re-attach the "sporter" stock and make it "sporting" again? As in, it meets the legal requirements by law to be considered a sporting rifle and not an "assault" rifle?

 

[jws527]

If the stock you install looks something like this:

Then you aren't violating 922r, because a skeleton technically isn't a pistol grip.

If you decide to add high capacity magazines or do an "open" pistol grip conversion, then things get quite a bit more complicated. You won't be violating federal law with a pistol grip and/or high cap mag if the weapon is also modified to comply with 922r. That means that you cannot have more than 10 foreign made "parts" (as defined by the BATFE - check their website for a list) in your rifle. Some things count as "parts" (like the receiver, magazine or barrel) while others don't (such as pins/rivets/screws and such). All parts beyond 10 must be of domestic manufacture.

To ensure 922r compliance with a Saiga, most people install a US made buttstock, pistol grip and trigger group (trigger group counts as three parts). If I remember correctly, the factory Saiga has 14 parts, so you must replace at least four of them with US-made parts without adding any other foreign parts to ensure compliance. The trigger group and buttstock are enough to account for those four, and the pistol grip (a part not included on the original rifle) or magazine must therefore be US made or else you will have 11 foreign parts on your rifle. Most people will install a US-made pistol grip so that they can continue to use foreign made magazines. You can really do any combination of parts that you can imagine, so long as the number of foreign parts in the rifle does not exceed 10. Don't take my word for it, though: make sure you do your own research. I can't be held liable for any accidental misinformation.

How important is 922r compliance? Well, if your weapon somehow falls into the custody of the BATFE and it isn't complaint, you will face serious criminal charges and could in all likelihood end up enjoying a relaxing vacation courtesy of our friends in Washington. I'm sure you can figure out the rest on your own...

As for your question about the sporter stock: if you intend to leave the factory trigger group in place with your "conversion" (which would probably mean using a skeleton stock or some sort of improvised pistol grip), then converting the rifle back to sporter configuration is as easy as reinstalling the factory buttstock. If you do an actual AK style pistol grip conversion, you will have to permanently alter the receiver to move the trigger forward which will place it out of reach of the factory sporter stock. In this case, the sporter stock probably won't be of much use to you.

In my opinion, if you want to keep things simple and avoid legal hassles, just get a skeleton stock and use the factory mags and be done with it. Otherwise, do the full blown pistol grip conversion, replace the parts I suggested above, and try to avoid adding any foreign made parts of any type from here on out just to keep things simple.

 

[RockyMtnTactical]

http://www.minutemanreview.com/2008/08/saiga-ak-556.html

Saiga's are awesome!

 

[Kind of Blued]

A million monkeys at a million typewriters, given enough time, could write more logical legislation.

Make that three monkeys, at your computer, during your lunch break.

 

[LKB3rd]

Shortest way to put it = If you are going to add "evil" features, like a pistol grip, mags of higher capacity than stock, muzzle device, etc, then you need to do a 922r conversion, to get your parts count down to where it isn't considered an "import" any more.
It is pretty easy to do a full on conversion of a Saiga to comply with 922r, and they end up being very cool rifles.. they are cool in stock form as well.
Check out the Saiga forum http://forum.saiga-12.com/ for info and help with any and all issues regarding modifying Saiga's.

 

[carlrodd]

A million monkeys at a million typewriters, given enough time, could write more logical legislation.

Make that three monkeys, at your computer, during your lunch break.

yup. and we lay down for it.

 

[SJgunguy24]

If your gonna install the skeleton stock and that's it your GTG. Handguards count as well. If you want to leave the trigger in the stock location then only 2 parts count. If a pistol grip is installed it doesn't count. Why? Well in order for said part to count towards the 10 or less,it MUST REPLACE a pre existing part. Saigas are not sold with pistol grips in factory trim. Mags do count. The mag body,follower and baseplate are all counted. Surefire gun mags sell hi-cap Saiga specific USA manufactured mags. Check the link out. This dude sells compliance parts that fit Saigas. http://www.dinzagarms.com

 

[MIL-DOT]

This is a good place for info on Saigas, their conversions, and AK's in general...
http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=4&f=80&t=53631

 

[Paladin_Hammer]

First off, thanks for all the reply's. jws527's post was extremely helpful!

I'm wondering though, are the changes to the placement of the trigger group so permanent that you cannot simply re-install it in the place of the pistol grip? I'm asking because, while I'd like the pistol-grip conifiguration for the range, I'm pretty sure I'd avoid any trouble with a game-warden if the rifle was in its "sporter" configuration.

 

[MD_Willington]

The saiga firearms have been around for quite some time, I found a book in a local used book store that was printed maybe in the 60's or 70's and it had the saiga firearms in it. The book was something along the lines of hunting firearms from around the world...

 

[SSN Vet]

Based on the latest round of Palin bashing from CNN, when they published a photo (that they knew was doctored) of her in a bakini holding what they called an "AK-47" and an "Assault Rifle", even a Remington 7600 w/ a 4X scope is evil, if it's "black"....

so scary!

 

[SSN Vet]

and OBTW....

if your going to go the Saiga route....do the trigger group conversion and not the skeleton stock thing.

putting the trigger back up where it belongs makes the rifle balance a LOT better.

but having said all that....with Saiga's going for over $300 and the parts costing ~$150 for a bare bones basic conversion. You might just as well go and buy an AK. (and this from a guy who converted his own Saiga 2 years ago.)

 

[Aka Zero]

Only downside I can see to not converting a saiga. Expensive mags.

And you can get saiga brand high cap mags. Legal ALMOST AK. without any hassles. No modifications to the gun.

 

[jws527]

I'm wondering though, are the changes to the placement of the trigger group so permanent that you cannot simply re-install it in the place of the pistol grip? I'm asking because, while I'd like the pistol-grip conifiguration for the range, I'm pretty sure I'd avoid any trouble with a game-warden if the rifle was in its "sporter" configuration.

When you remove the pistol grip from its factory location, you're going to end up destroying the plate that mounts underneath it (which serves as a mount for the trigger guard and covers the actual trigger hole further forward on the receiver), you have to cut part of the trigger guard off (unless you buy a new one), and the pins holding the trigger group in place have expansion shoulders; they're effectively riveted into the receiver. When you do the standard pistol grip conversion, you're going to end up filing and drilling out these rivets so that you can move the pins and such forward.

Now, it is theoretically possible to restore a converted Saiga to factory condition, but it would require a lot of work - it's not like swapping out furniture. Going back and forth would be highly impractical to say the least.

My suggestion would be to do the regular pistol grip conversion, and then buy a Dragunov or thumbhole style stock that will work with a standard stamped AK receiver. This way you can quickly and easily convert your rifle into a "sporter" look for hunting purposes with the trigger group in the standard forward position, right behind the magazine well.

Here's an example:


Look closely and you'll see that the trigger is right behind the magazine and the grip portion of the stock is underneath the receiver (where the pistol grip would normally be) instead of behind it a-la the Saiga.

 

[jws527]

but having said all that....with Saiga's going for over $300 and the parts costing ~$150 for a bare bones basic conversion. You might just as well go and buy an AK. (and this from a guy who converted his own Saiga 2 years ago.)

I do have to agree with this. I was all set to buy my roommate's 7.62x39 Saiga (virtually never used) and then convert it myself, but he decided to keep it and asked me if I would help him with the conversion instead (since I had already done all of the research). It wasn't particularly difficult, but once we tallied up the cost of the parts and tools he purchased (with shipping) and added it to the cost of the rifle, we found that the total cost wasn't too far from $500 - and this is for a rifle that still has the Saiga style front grip (some like it; I don't) and lacks niceties like military sights and a threaded muzzle with a brake. Since we're graduate students, it was a fun project and opportunity cost wasn't an issue, but if you're looking at this as a way to save money instead of a fun project you'll probably want to reconsider.

 

[Girodin]

Only downside I can see to not converting a saiga. Expensive mags.

And you can get saiga brand high cap mags. Legal ALMOST AK. without any hassles. No modifications to the gun.

Is what you are saying is that you can put saiga specific mags with a capicity greater than ten rounds in the unconverted gun?

I believe doing so would constitute a violation of 922r.

In terms of magazines that dont necesitate the installation of a bullet guide, there are the expensive ones like sure fire, the crappy one like pro mag, and then there is master molder mags that run like a top with or without a bullet guide. That said putting one in a stock saiga I believe violates 922r.

 

[RP88]

the magizine - including the follower and spring - are considered counted parts if I recall correctly. Be careful about that.

 

[ravenwolf71]

Just buy the skeleton stock version

 

[saigafreake]

Do the conversion youll enjoy it alot.

 

[Girodin]

the magizine - including the follower and spring - are considered counted parts if I recall correctly. Be careful about that.

Yes they are, which leaves you needing to change at least one more compliancy part to be legal.

 

[MD_Willington]

Once it has a bullet guide you can use the same cheap mags every other ak user has..

Even the .223 mags are cheap, get the SAR3 mags for about $25 or the Galils for 12-25...

The surefire polymers are expensive but you get 3 US made parts towards your BAFTE - lmnop parts count

 

[Paladin_Hammer]

Crap crap crap...

Are you guys telling me that by putting a 30rd magazine into a saiga (unmodified), I'm breaking the law? NUTS! I bought a Saiga Monday, but because I bought a scope mount (nice piccany rail) a scope, and 80 rounds for it (I like to sight in my rifles, very, very precisely), I got a free 30 round magazine to go with it!

What could I replace (cheaply) on the saiga that would make it 922r complaint without doing the pistol grip conversion? There has to be something I can do for under 100 bucks...

The 30 round mag is US made.

 

[nalioth]

You might just as well go and buy an AK.

The Saiga is an AK.

And you can get saiga brand high cap mags. Legal ALMOST AK. without any hassles. No modifications to the gun.

Would you like 10 years in a PMITA prison with that?

Inserting a magazine of 11 round capacity into a factory Saiga rifle violates the 922r laws.

You can use a US made gas piston and other internal parts if you wish to keep your Saiga rifle in factory trim, but you must comply with 922r when using 'non sporting magazines' (their words, not mine) in a factory Saiga rifle.

What could I replace (cheaply) on the saiga that would make it 922r complaint without doing the pistol grip conversion?

You could install a US made gas piston, or visit Dinzag's place for other ideas to fit your budget.