Rational thoughts on Cecil

[jmr40]

http://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/c...tion-may-hurt-wildlife-zimbabwe-guide-n402926

I found this story a few minutes ago and wanted to share.

The video is really unrelated to the rest of the story however, read the text. Basically this is coming from a Zimbabwe resident and photo safari guide reinforcing what many here have been trying to get across from the beginning. Lion hunting is not hurting the population and eliminating it will do more harm than good.

Some excerpts

However, he added that the largest decline of animal populations across Africa had come because of a loss of their habitat, rather than sport hunting. "Sport hunting is not really at the heart of the reduction of animals, it's a lack of space for those animals to live in," he said.

If you look at the hard lifting that's been done in Africa...who's there doing the conservation work? The hunting operators," he added. "Most of them are dedicated conservationists

Photographic safari trips, which Gammon provides, would not bring in enough money on their own to persuade cash-strapped governments "that these areas should be preserved for wildlife and not given over to people and cattle," he said.

 

[CoRoMo]

The pitchforks and torches are out for anyone who dares hunt that continent today. Both Sabrina Corgatelli and Kendall Jones are getting a ton of collateral hate flung their way. Visit either woman's facebook page and you'll read some truly disgraceful, and notably uninformed comments. There actually seems to be a great void of rational thoughts there.

 

[george.686]

does lion taste like chicken?

 

[RetiredUSNChief]

In a way, it's good. It gives people a chance to address exactly WHO leads the way on conservationist movements.

And it ain't the PETA-types.

In fact, when you get right down to it...when it comes to animals, the ones who tend to suffer are the ones who aren't food-stock or otherwise provide no other market value. Non-food stock/non-marketable animals are economically pushed out of the way, quite literally, in favor of those which are.

We do the same thing with plants, too.

"Harvesting" does not mean "binge-consume until complete depletion". It's part of a sustainable process required to maintain the supply.

 

[Hookeye]

While the taking of the cat in question may fall under poaching, it IMHO is not reflective of the all too common (and way heavier in damage) that is "regular" poaching.

When sport hunting is banned and animals overpopulate..........what will they do? Cull.

Dead is dead.

But to an anti hunter a ranger or other "official" killing an animal while making low or minimum wage.............that's way better than having somebody pay a lot for a tag and pump other money into the economy.

What needs to happen........is no hunting in one area. Let things go like they will. No culling either. Then when disease breaks out, and they lose all of the animals...........let the blame fall where it should.

They won't accept it though.

 

[Hookeye]

Lots of folks are upset at the moment, and the anti hunting groups will play this for all it's worth. They'll take in some good money. Now.

But like all things of emotion, it will wane and the money will be less and less.

How many of these vegan (and vegan wannabe) kids who post nasty stuff on Youtube hunting vids, pop on forums and message boards in support of anti hunting stuff......

how many of them are going to pony the $ up year after year, to support a non hunting wildlife area?

I think the little hippies should have 25% of their Hot Topic, Hollister, Panera and Chipotle wages/tips automatcally taken out for it

Eh, they can afford it, still living in their parent's basement.

 

[Hookeye]

It'd be awesome to have some major Hollywood or music industry superstar go to see the "other lion" and do something stupid to where it had to be shot.

Or they did nothing to the cat and the celebrity was eaten (attack on film).

Give the tweens something more cry worthy LOL.

 

[Hookeye]

Kid had some friends over, couple of them looked like they were bi.
Of course one was a vegan, or was in the process of conversion to vegan.
Anti hunting nonsense was mentioned (my kids make venison jerky).

Yup the old man had to set the record straight.

Leather shoes...........not fake leather either. Pointed that out. Kid looked at the floor, refused to make eye contact.

Told them all that the I phones and health drinks they so enjoy.........were delivered by trucks than ran over rabbits and squirrels.

Told them that their existance means animals will die. Period. Asked what level of blood on the hands is acceptable?

No answer.

Little jerk has not returned.

If he does, and continues with his crap...........I'm gonna kill an extra deer this year, donate the meat to a food bank. But I will kill it because of his stupidity.
Legal, sporting and all legit.............but an extra kill because of him being stupid at my place.

Stupid should hurt.

Teach 'em that.

 

[jmr40]

When we as hunters bring up these points we are not taken seriously. I find it refreshng coming from a non hunter with a different point of view.

Another interesting quote from the link.

Russell Gammon said hunting for sport was a "bittersweet pill that we have to swallow" because of the revenues it distributed to conservation efforts.

Even though this person does not necessarily agree with hunting, he is smart enough to recognize it is essential.

What many people here don't seem to understand is that most people in African nations just don't view wildlife the same way we do. They are living in places where unemployment is often 80% and wildlife kills their livestock, their very families at times, and trample their crops. Foreigners who pay $50,000 for a hunt bring in needed revenue and put food on their tables. If hunting is stopped, the people living there will simply kill them with no more concern than we would have for killing a roach.

It is the fact that these animals have monetary value to them that they choose to keep them alive. Not for any idealistic conservation values that many in this country seem to believe in.

 

[tarosean]

While the taking of the cat in question may fall under poaching, it IMHO is not reflective of the all too common (and way heavier in damage) that is "regular" poaching.

Why because he paid big money???

I am not against the legal taking of any type of game. However, very much against illegal harvesting of animals.

 

[Patocazador]

What most don't seem to grasp is that everything in Zimbabwe is legal .. or illegal depending on the whims of President for Life Mugabe. If a black man killed the lion, it is legal IF he paid off the right Mugabe people. If a white man killed the lion and it got bad press, he "stole" it from the rightful people of Zimbabwe.

The following is taken from a South African forum post:

Mugabe puts end to lion-hunt controversy
Harare, July 2015

In a string of typically insane yet insightful comments, President Robert Mugabe (91) of Zimbabwe has weighed in on the recent controversy involving the alleged illegal trophy hunt of a popular Zimbabwean lion named Cecil.
Inspired by the South African anti-colonialism campaign, #RhodesMustFall, which recently lead to the removal of statues of long-forgotten ‘agents of colonialism’, Mugabe called the lion hunt a “step towards ending western Imperialism”.

“I have always strived to rid this country of any trace of colonialism. All we want to remain with is the grave of (Cecil John) Rhodes. Zimbabwe will go down in the history books as the place where the effects of imperialism were reversed, where it was totally destroyed, where no remnant of anything should remain”.

Speaking from his ivory and leopard-skin throne, Mugabe elaborated, “I don’t know what these people were thinking. Who names a lion after Rhodes? Did they not think some action would be taken? I would have expected scholars from Oxford to know their history”, referring to the research group who had named and followed this particular lion for many years.

When asked whether he thought the furor could damage Zimbabwe’s valuable hunting and eco-tourism industry, the elderly statesman quipped, “back when I was at Edinburgh, I used to joke with my chums that ‘there’s plenty more when that one came from’. Ah, those were the days…”

“Seriously though, we don’t really need tourists or hunters at all. Their economic impact is negligible, like imperialist farmers. No, our Chinese friends, they will pay handsomely for our resources. I’ve heard lion bones are highly sought-after for their witchcraft”.

“In fact, this plague of bunny-huggerism we are sitting with currently, it’s nothing but a ploy by Blair’s gang of homosexuals. He’s behind this, I’m telling you. Even Obama fears me, I have a small frame, but Obama trembles before me”.

On a final tirade while being wheeled off by his physicians, the senile-delinquent Mugabe shouted, “What has the West done with their animals? Where is the woolly rhinoceros, the passenger pigeon, the cave lion? Don’t come here with your ideas. Go to the zoo...”

* * *
When asked for his opinion, President Jacob Zuma of neighbouring South Africa only said “loving animals is a white-man thing”, before turning his attention back to issuing a tender for repairing goat-damage to the roof of the luxury chicken coop at his controversial multi-million-rand Nkandla compound.

* * *
(Disclaimer: much of this is paraphrasing of actual Mugabe quotes!)

 

[eastbank]

i was right up at the zimbabwe boarder in july and just came back for a hunting trip, and i,m here to tell you zimbabwe is truely a failed state. i watched empty trucks comming acrossed the boarder from zimbabwe to south africa and trucks full to things falling off them heading back to zimbabwe, their money is worthless and they have no goods to buy anyway. the people are in sad condition and live day to day while the leaders and army eat regulary and get rich from any aid they get from other countries. i have hunted in africa three times on seven different ranches and all were ran within the law and believe me the locals were happy for the meat and money we spent and gave. i always take clothing i can no longer wear(two 50 lbs bags in the hold and 25lbs carry on)) and when i come back i only bring back two changes and give the rest to the workers on the ranch. the ladies looked good in the harley shirts. eastbank.

 

[easy]

When sport hunting is banned and animals overpopulate..........what will they do? Cull.

Proof of this is CA and mountain lions. Stupid feel good legislation.

 

[Art Eatman]

tarosean, the only thing I've found that was (apparently) illegal about the entire affair was that the hunting guide allegedly did not have a lion quota for the particular hunting-lease tract. When the gps was found, that killed any effort by the guide to claim that the kill was made in a quota area.

 

[herrwalther]

My understanding of what happened based on conflicting reports is Cecil was lured off an animal preserve and killed. An illegal kill. I hunt. I have friends who do large animal hunts that dump thousands into the local economy of Africa. We all know that money pays for anti-poaching officers to protect endangered species. I cannot condone the illegal harvesting of an animal.

 

[tarosean]

tarosean, the only thing I've found that was (apparently) illegal about the entire affair was that the hunting guide allegedly did not have a lion quota for the particular hunting-lease tract.

No one had a tag/permit or "quota". According to the Gov of Zimbabwe, not the land owner, the guide, the outfitter.

All are facing charges along with Zimbabwe wanting extradition and USFWS is looking at charges now.

His "statements" are reminiscent of his felony Bear conviction too.


Really, no different than me driving up to the Rockies and Hunting a Mountain goat without a tag or shooting one of the dozens of deer that visit my back pasture without the proper tags..

 

[oneounceload]

There actually seems to be a great void of rational thoughts there.

Especially by the left when it comes to ANY emotionally-charged subject

And it ain't the PETA-types.

Last report I saw (and I can't find it now) said something like 97% of the animals handed over to PETA for safe keeping (as in owner died, etc) were euthanized - aka KILLED by the very folks swearing they are their friends........

DU, SCI and similar folks are the ones putting up the money for conservation; same as the folks in Africa with the hunter money.

 

[MCgunner]

BTW, I've heard tell there's some MAJOR corruption in Zimbabwe, makes Mexico look honest.

 

[H&Hhunter]

Folks,
Keep this on subject or it will be closed. The subject is "Cecil" the lion.

 

[Sav .250]

The fall out from public opinion, conceivable can change how "trophy" hunting around the world is regulated in the future.

 

[bikerdoc]

Cecil was killed by greed, and coruption in a broken system of goverment.

 

[jmr40]

When the story first broke my 1st reaction was that it was most likely a legal hunt and some folks were upset that a lion ( who had become almost a tame pet) had wandered off a wildlife preserve and had been legally taken.

As more information comes out I believe that at least on some level things were not done properly. The details are sketchy and possibly unreliable. At this point I'm taking a wait and see position. Hopefully the full truth will come out in the end and the right people will be punished.

But that has been beat to death here and elsewhere. I was just impressed that a non-hunter seemed to "get it" and understand the role hunting plays in wildlife conservation and wanted to share. Hopfully some of the quotes and information provided in the article will help us have rational debates with others we come in contact with each day who may be in favor of ending such hunting.

 

[jmorris]

I cannot condone the illegal harvesting of an animal.

That is pretty firm ground to stand. Although the only thing worse than an illegal hunt would be a witch hunt...

 

[X-Rap]

The African game is in much greater danger from those in corrupt government than any Safari Hunters.
I wonder about the construct of game laws in these countries and doubt most of us have a clue. Does each African country have individual states or provinces that are regulated differently similar to what we see here and in Canada?
Is there national regulation or provincial? Are these laws and regulations printed in English and updated or are regulations changed and enforced on the whims of the corrupt gov?

This whole affair I'm afraid will have an enduring negative effect on the sport, it seems that some countries have, at least temporarily stopped some hunting, Major Airlines will not carry some trophies, SCI was quick to throw the DR under the bus.

For us here in the US most game laws are cut and dried and violations are clear but go to a foreign 3rd world county with language and social barriers as well as rampent corruption and it becomes much murkier. Even in the US, what is the legal norm and honored tradition in one state is viewed with scorn and could possibly earn a felony charge in another.

 

[X-Rap]

I cannot condone the illegal harvesting of an animal.

And here is where morals and ethics become important, what may be legal in a country is run by an absolute ruler or possibly a caliphate will have laws that certainly will stretch what we consider right and moral. We must be cautious with how we view what is and isn't illegal.