RCBS Pro Chucker Case Feeder Tales

[GW Staar]

The video above shows the case feeder.....working....carefully.....but I wouldn't want to put a motor drive on it! Nor get in a hurry....nor hold my mouth wrong!

I will fix this thing and make it efficient and reliable and at the same time fast....period!

It's one thing to make a new product that works. Entirely another to make it so that others can make it work, starting by providing complete instructions non-engineers can follow, including the "common sense" details they never seem to think to add, never realizing that non-engineers don't already know as a matter of course......things that are necessary to keep the product working.

This Case Feeder is almost ready, just not for non-engineering types who have trouble figuring things out, NOR should they have to!

Many will need help from RCBS, RCBS will need to improve a few things, and I plan to be a burr under their saddle until they do!



First case in point (pun intended)....after more than several hours working the press hard, testing a mod on the little Case Pusher part (see end of this post), that out of the box will do 9mm admirably, but nothing much else, the case feeder started coming apart. (adjustments started going south to Mexico all by themselves)

First, the clear feed tube dropped to the slider. (1/4" long set screws holding it up are set in just so, to allow the clear tube to sit on them.....but they are not meant to be tightened.....bad idea....set screws not tight, turn and turn until the thing they are holding up drops! Fix is shown at the bottom of the tube holder in the picture below. I bought a couple of Hex bolts at Ace, 1/4" long that you can tighten against the head so they don't work in and out.

And notice the other two hex head bolts......also replacing set screws that came loose and made the case-stop quit stopping cases!......Yup....all the cases fell out of the tube to the rail below.

Now I can hand tighten those to make adjusting for different case heights easy.....and makes it easy to keep it tight.

As I set this up for different cases I will drill through the tube holder to have quick non slip permanent settings for each caliber. Then those bolts you see below will turn in tight and stay there.

To be fair Hornady's feeder has it's problems still, and Dillon's had theirs out for a long time....bet they had teething problems too. Takes time to evolve great products.



Now for my next gripe, the Case pusher:

The part below is the included case pusher that only does 9mm well and .45 fairly well.. Everything else will work, as long as you do it sloooooooow. That's just not satisfying, or for that matter acceptable.

The picture below shows the part using only a "V" block? to center everything and push? If not done slow enough, it just knocks them down.



I slightly modified it with a Dremel, and some files, and a lot of trial and error! Hours today.....but I won. Below is what the same part looks like now.....now it will feed .9mm, .45ACP, .357, .223, and .308.......and even 30/30 & 300 Win. Mag!, and much faster. 100%? Getting there ...... still tweaking.



The bottom is cut out to keep cases like 357 and 30/30 happy. Above it is a shape to go in most ejection grooves, which keeps the tall cases from tipping sideways. Just above that is a centering radius, including wings to grab any thing unstable. It ain't pretty in it's "1st prototype", and already it works way better than their "V" block. Stay posted on that.

Speaking of not pretty, the Homemade front part of the plastic articulated pusher I created for my Pro 2000 has the award for ugly.....and it also works every time as fast as I can push for any caliber I use. Pictured below, Pro Chucker one in the background.

 

[GW Staar]

Place holder.

 

[jmorris]

I have had the best luck with “pushers” that surround the case, similar to your last photo but with sides so it’s more like a U.

 

[GW Staar]

Yes, I was shocked to find a "V" block with zero side support that only works with a 9mm. The shape I came up with is the best I could do grinding the existing part. And I'm limited with the size of the existing part, or it hits things on its ride up the stroke.

It now works a 1000 times better and for most calibers, BUT.........

Once in a while when the loader is cranked too hard and fast, the less vertically stable cases like .308 and .223 can tip a little sideways, enough to cause the case to jam against the shell case slot and not go in. Maybe 1 in 10, but that's way too much. Slowing down cures it, but we are an impatient species, aren't we? I do think taller sides would probably cure it, but I don't have a 3D printer handy or the room everywhere along its track!

I have another idea I'm working on. This thread will be boring some of the time, sorry. And I have a long ways to go.......wish this was the only problem with the feeder. I think the press would have been more of a hit if they had put more development time into the case feed. I have zero doubts that marketing pushed this promising press into the market too soon.

I realize that I, starting with .308, caused problems......I'm sure the guy who designed the P.C. spent most of his time making auto pistol calibers feed.....and here I stick this monkey wrench into the works!. But i figure that if I can make it do .308 and .223 right, it won't sweat the small stuff.

I hinted at other problems? Just stupid things that show they hurried the feeder to the market. Things work loose way more than they should, and when they do, you'd better stop and tighten things up. 99% of this could've been stopped easily....almost done with those problems.

The Pro Chucker is a smooth the rumour! It either strokes super smooth and easy, or you dang well better stop and see why it's not! If you don't...you pay. If anything hinders free movement something is wrong....whether the stroke stops or if it suddenly feels spongy! Spongy means the case stop slipped sideways off the vertical rail, and it's about to be bent. I did that and I knew better. My brain told my arm, "stop! damn it! and it wouldn't! Took hours to get the shaft perfect and straight again!

Update: Fixed that gremlin today. Shouldn't happen again. Details coming.

You don't short stroke this machine......you just don't. If I can just get that detail in my thick skull, the press feels super smooth, smoother than anything else I've tried. There is only one exception where you can and are encouraged to short stoke....and that's near the bottom of the stroke....for to quickly empty cases out of the shell plate. But that's the only valid occasion! Onward.

 

[GW Staar]

The following video shows a lot of improvement. Faster and more sure. I've fed a lot of 308's today and trial and error has made a big difference.
First, I removed the spring and bolt screwed into the side of the ramp on the side of the press. With the new pusher profile it's not only not needed, it ensured failure. Day and night difference....much smoother and no jerking around. I'm not sure I understand why they thought they needed that....probably because the "V" block required an intermediate stop to keep even the short case from flying off. I won't need it at all.

----------------.308 with Dremel-ground pusher-------------------------------------------------- .308 with stock pusher

BTW, you can watch Vimeo videos full screen by clicking the Vimeo word, then the full screen icon:

The next picture is the original part (upside down) shown in the previous post. The only thing that touches the .308 cases is the short part with the "V" groove. No way that works with a tall case at anything approaching speed.

The same part also shown in the previous post was further tweaked, and refined, ground to shape with a Dremel using sandpaper and stone cylinders as follows:
1. I left what I could....very little left to actually to wrap around the cases.....If I had jmorris's shop and skill and a little piece of aluminum, I could do better. Or if he was my slave....
2. This is the step that stops against the shell plate. (both sides) It has to be filed until the pusher overlaps the shell plate and gets the case fully into the shell plate.
RCBS didn't overlap.....now I understand why the "V" groove was so small. Otherwise it would have had to overlap.....and the profile against the case would have been even smaller!
3. This band portruding from #5 below is recessed between the #2 steps and is shaped to fit the ejection groove of the case. Purpose is to keep the tall cases from toppling sideways.
4. The pusher is indented underneath (you can see a radius in the center) to allow the case head to go in far enough so the body is straight up and down.
5. The basic recessed "wrap around" curve that the case body self-centers on.


Test tomorrow is the big one. .223 cases! Wish me luck I may need it.
If it doesn't work so well, I may order another pusher and carve a second one for that caliber......there's nothing more unstable standing on it's base as that one. I need a machinest friend closer geographicly!

Below is the whole pusher assembly. The little part I carved has a set screw on top connecting it to the back part that rolls up and down the track on the side of the press.



Above you see the side profile of the front pusher. It can't be much longer, maybe a 1/4". But with that 1/4" I could create a little more wrap around. It could be a lot higher, 1/2" even, and not run into anything. Ideal would be a custom machined front pusher, using all of that. Maybe RCBS will see the light.
The little tits you see are all that remains from their extended "V" block. On a new part it would extend all the way up....including the extra 1/2" and would be part of a simpler surround profile. As it is I'll grind them off...don't think they are doing anything.

 

[GW Staar]

The Gremlin Fix:

Bending (then having to straighten) the case stop was a real pain.....I sure don't want to have to keep a lifetime supply of those.

What to do to prevent that is to change the way it clamps on to and adjusts up and down the aluminum case tube base. See below:


RCBS supplies a "C" shaped alum. piece that wraps around the base. It has 3 holes, the center one for the case stop, and threaded holes on either side meant for set screws! I'm sorry but that's just not secure. You screw the set screws in and it flexes & deforms the "C" and it still slides.

I simply drilled holes into the slots in the base at the heights I needed for .223, .308, .40, and .45 and threaded them to match the set screws. But I replaced the set screws with Thumb Screws that I can thread in tight! Now its easy to shift to another caliber and the case stop, which is supposed to ride up and down that black steel vertical cam (in the picture in front of the stop) won't slip sideways or up and down and bend the thing, or cause who knows what other havoc in the feed system!

If RCBS was to just supply threaded holes up and down the base rather than the fancy cool attractive slots.....bet it wouldn't cost any more....and it would sure be more reliable.

See the little black steel bullet sticking towards us? That's the case stop. That turkey has another gremlin. Riding down the steel cam in front.....it squeaks and squeals! RCBS says to grease the cam! That lasts about ten strokes! That's in lieu of the wheel that shoulda rolled down it! Yeah I know, that wasn't in the budget! I'm thinking there's gotta be a way to stop the infernal squeaking!

What about an encased ball bearing?

 

[GW Staar]

.223 Works!

I had to modify the pusher some more.....actually simplified it. (and yes I ground off the "tits", as if they were doing anything) Obviously the pusher had to "climb in" further into the shell holder to reach the tiny .223 cases. Duh! I knew that. I was hoping that doing that wouldn't screw up the super efficient way the pusher worked on the .308. Won't know until tomorrow.

 

[Rule3]

How about you and JMorris get together and build your own press? Seems like it would a best seller!

 

[GW Staar]

I guarantee you, jmorris doesn't need......me.

I just want to get 7 full....real....stations.....this one is the only one out there.

I think the basic machine is really good....just needs a beta period...but nobody seems willing to try it, who can sort out the problems rather than just bash.......

Responsive marketing would really help too, but the gears at RCBS turn slow it's a big company owned by a huge company. But I like them! They've treated me extremely well for 45 years.

 

[Dudedog]

7 stations would be really cool.....

 

[cfullgraf]

I'm wondering if a plan of attack would be to concentrate on loading one cartridge. Build/modify parts specifically for that cartridge and at this time, do not worry about other cartridges.

Once the particular cartridge runs as desired, then, maybe work on another.

It may be that some of the parts really need to be cartridge specific and not try to make the press a "jack of all trades, master of none".

I like progressive presses because they combine several steps in a single stroke of the handle. But, I will admit, I do not use the full capability of my progressive presses because I do not care to fix the deficiencies built in by the manufacturer trying to make their press the "be all to end all" and my operation preferences work around those deficiencies. (For instance, I prime off the press and clean between resizing and loading)

I'm on the edge of assembling a press dedicated for 38 wadcutters in part to see if I can make it load from sizing to complete round but as is, I load more ammunition than I shoot. I've gotten into 38 Special revolvers of late and shoot mostly wadcutters in them.

I hope GW Starr gets his ProChucker7 sorted out. After seeing the video of the indexing of the shell plate, I might be interested in it.

 

[GW Staar]

Update: I reinstalled the #3 shell plate an hour ago (.308). I'm happy to say that the deeper cuts and simplified profile that feeds .223, 100%, still feeds .308 as if I hadn't touched it. I'm tickled pink! Perfection! Who'd of thought that I should have started with the .223. Maybe the fact that the factory pusher threw .223 cases across the shell plate, should have given me a hint. Whew! Yes! The pistol calibers work with the factory pusher as well as this modded one. So I will be ordering more pusher assemblies in the coming months.

, wondering if a plan of attack would be to concentrate on loading one cartridge. Build/modify parts specifically for that cartridge and at this time, do not worry about other cartridges.

Once the particular cartridge runs as desired, then, maybe work on another.

It may be that some of the parts really need to be cartridge specific and not try to make the press a "jack of all trades, master of none".

I understand what you're saying, to be sure, and I've been keeping things open to that sort of thing as well. In fact, I'm making a list of parts and/or assemblies that I will buying duplicates of for that very reason........And I do still have the Pro 2000, the Rock Chucker, and the Summit, which I still use for some things.

As for the list I referred to? So far it includes:
1. The 3-part pusher assembly (going to buy duplicates) where I can simply undo the spring and change out when I change shell plates. (so I don't have to readjust set screws for assembly length for each caliber....that makes it a 5 second change out.)
2. The primer assembly already is a 10 second change out, unscrews and screws in.
3. Now, modded with drilled/tapped location holes, the feeder tube's stop pin can be unscrewed and screwed in at pre-set locations, for any cartridge, again seconds,....so far.....just four....308, 223,.40S&W, and .45ACP. One size feeder tube works for all that. I can add more or not. RCBS makes a feeder tube kit with different sizes....but I don't think I'm going to load 300 winmag on a progressive....or anything smaller than .40 S&W....but I could. (One interesting tidbit....I still have extra thinwall tubing I used for Hornady's bullet feeder mods, and one size glove-slips inside the RCBS tube making it smaller without changing tubes....just have to trace and cut matching slots)
4. And of course now I can populate die plates with dies, including powder measure powder dies and not have to have a powder measure set up on each one.
5. And, using the new RCBS Quick Change P.M.'s, I can buy $10 rotor stems for each load I want...set once. I just need to figure out a way to identify (mark) settings on them....working on that, maybe a color dot. (and, I can use my 3 existing p.m's with mics, preset as well.......and now I have 2 Q.C.'s added with the new press and conversion kit.)

,I like progressive presses because they combine several steps in a single stroke of the handle. But, I will admit, I do not use the full capability of my progressive presses because I do not care to fix the deficiencies built in by the manufacturer trying to make their press the "be all to end all" and my operation preferences work around those deficiencies. (For instance, I prime off the press and clean between resizing and loading)

I can relate to all that too, except for the part about fixing deficiencies! I love solving problems. Pure fun! It's a hobby my wife, I'm sure, wishes I'd grow out of......

You have a .38Special interest.....mine changes with the wind.....that's my biggest flaw. And that also means I load only ammo that I need. My stock sucks....so does my component supply....trying to rectify that! Most of my problem is time......but that's going to change soon and I'm trying to get ready before I get too interested in a rocking chair!

The ProChucker7 is almost there....least ways the systems I have. I'm still waiting on the missing parts for the primer system. RCBS's engineer thinks that that problem is in the past....people just need to learn to use it. We will see. If not......I may just follow you and Walkalong along the bench/hand priming path (may anyway) we will see.

,
After seeing the video of the indexing of the shell plate, I might be interested in it.

I was very pleased! The RCBS engineer said I would be. It's a nice press.....just hope Aluminum holds up.......that would be a disappointment......but not that many 650's break.....and the guarantee is as good.....long as the company survives that is.

Jmorris has no faith in me.....he compared this project to getting a tough steak! And says I'm still chewing! Ha Ha. I'm having the most fun since my case feeder project for the Pro 2000. I had a ball with that and still use it.......there's a lot more potential with this project.