RCBS small base dies

[Woody3]

Hi all,
What are your feelings of the RCBS small base dies? Specifically in the .223 AR. I've only found one review of them and that reloader didn't have much good to say. (mostly stuck cases)

Sorry bout the heading. I didn't catch it until it was to late. Fat finger syndrome.

Thanks for the help
Woody

Keep your head low and your powder dry.

 

[Steve in PA]

Well, I've shot and reloaded probably 10k (that's 10,000) rounds of .223 for my AR using the standard RCBS FL die (and later the X-die), and never had any issues.

 

[Waywatcher]

I use a small base die for my AR, and definitely recommend it to others. Here's why: brass meant to be reloaded for semi-autos is intended to be resized in a small base die. For example, RCBS makes dies for .30 carbine and 7.62x39 only in small base configuration. I also use a precision mic and I sleep well at night.

I know some folks get away without a small base die, but it's not correct, and its not intended by die manufacturers.

 

[billybob44]

Proper lube.

I have over the years delt with most all brands/styles of case lube for FL sizing. The best OA lube that I have used is Imperial Size Wax.
It is not as fast as spray lubes, but you will not stick a case if you use it.
For AR/Mini-14 loads, I SB size all of the cases--Each to his own, on that..Bill.

 

[Walkalong]

I use standard dies for my AR. I size to fit a case gauge with them. Nary a problem. The older RCBS manuals suggest small base dies only if the standard dies are not working for you.

The new RCBS "AR" dies do use a small base sizer, but I think it is more a gimmick to sell dies than anything.

 

[ole farmerbuck]

I use standard dies for my AR. I size to fit a case gauge with them. Nary a problem. The older RCBS manuals suggest small base dies only if the standard dies are not working for you.

The new RCBS "AR" dies do use a small base sizer, but I think it is more a gimmick to sell dies than anything.

Totally agree.

 

[MEHavey]

I use SB for my M1A and AR gas guns. (The M1 can fend for itself)
Cheap insurance, and I've never stuck a case
(Imperial Wax again).

 

[rbernie]

I fixed the title.

I use the RCBS SB dies for those rifles that will not chamber brass sized with other options. <cough>Browning A-bolt<cough>. I try not to use the SB dies when not needed, since conventional wisdom has it that overworking the brass causes it to fail earlier and resizing with a SB die definitely falls into the 'working the brass harder' category.

 

[MtnCreek]

If a standard die works for you and your AR (and it likely will), use it. You will be working your brass less and the process will also be easier on you and your press. I've used Lee and RCBS standard FL dies w/o issue. I've also loaded for a AR w/ a Lee neck die and had pretty good results (just to see if I could).

If you're loading ammo that needs to function in ANY .223 weapon and your brass source consists of 5.56, go with a small base. In this case, I would recommend the Dillon carbide sizer (lube still required). Unless I'm mistaken, all Dillon rifle dies are small base.

 

[Woody3]

As usual you guys rock!!! Thanks for all the awesome help and suggestions.

Also, thanks for fixing the title.
Woody


Keep your head low and your powder dry.

 

[highlander 5]

I use a standard die set by Redding but I also use a case gauge to check my cases.

 

[bigedp51]

Base diameter of chamber reamer is C that run from 0.3779 to .3816, why use a small base die on a military chamber that is bigger and longer? The SAAMI base diameter for the .223 is 0.3769 and our reloading dies are made to SAAMI standards.

 

[Shmackey]

You won't get a case stuck in a small-base die if you lube it correctly with good lube (Imperial).

You will get a case stuck in a small-base die if you use Hornady One-Shot "lube." Ask me how I know--or better yet, ask the guys at Redding, who are currently using the Jaws of Life on my .308 Win SB die.

 

[cfullgraf]

For standard chambers using brass shot in that chamber, then resized and reloaded and fired in the same chamber, generally, standard dies should be fine.

But, manufacturing tolerances can catch up with you and is probably the cause of the varying opinions about standard and small base sizing dies.

I have one standard full length sizing die that when sizing brass shot in a Colt HBAR 5.56 NATO chamber, the brass will not chamber in my Service Rifle match rifle. But, brass shot in the match rifle then resized in this die works just fine in the match rifle.

I have another full length sizing die that I do not have any issue with the match rifle shooting brass shot in the 5.56 NATO chamber.

Having said that, I use small base dies with my 223 Remington loads that will be used in an AR-15. I just don't want to have problems.

I have AR-15s chambered in 204 Ruger and 17 Remington and use only standard dies for those rifles. But, i keep brass segregated by rifle with those calibers.

All bets are off if the chamber is a specially cut chamber not made to standard dimensions.

 

[popper]

The difference between My (308) hornady and RCBS AR die is .001 everywhere. Hornady says their die is SAAMI minimum. IMHO, the difference between .004 and .003 (excessive working of brass) won't make a difference in a gas gun, but a stuck case or slam-fire will. The CBS also uses a TAPER crimp vs the ROLL-crimp. I use flat base bullets, so I must flare the case. Taper crimp works fine, the roll crimp may case case buckling.

 

[MtnCreek]

Mr. P51,

The problem is when we use brass from a 'bigger' chamber (like SAW fired 5.56) and load them for our tight chambered autoloaders. The small base die will size the lower portion of the case body about a 0.001 or so smaller than the normal FL die.

I don't know this to be true, but it would make since to me that a case fired in a loose MG chamber would be more likely to spring back beyond SAAMI chamber specs after re-sizing.

 

[MtnCreek]

Popper,

How do you flare the case neck? Does the taper crimp remove all of the bell? Have you tryed chamfering?
Thanks.

 

[R.W.Dale]

Buy a case gauge and a STD set of size dies. If you then can't size once fired brass from your gun to fit in the case gauge (not likely) with the dies adjusted to the letter of the instructions (IE 1/8 to 1/4 turn into the shellholder) you have an out of spec rifle that needs to be fixed and not a need for a gimmick set of dies.


But either way no matter what dies you use if you're not using a case gauge you're simply guessing, especially for an autoloader

 

[GW Staar]

I use standard dies for my AR. I size to fit a case gauge with them. Nary a problem. The older RCBS manuals suggest small base dies only if the standard dies are not working for you.

The new RCBS "AR" dies do use a small base sizer, but I think it is more a gimmick to sell dies than anything.

While I agree that most chambers are big enough to make small base dies unnecessary, RCBS isn't into "gimmicks."

RCBS makes them to prevent call backs from owners of AR rifles who have chambers small enough to need those dies. Its not a die problem its a gun chamber problem.

I thought the same as Walkalong, until I bought one that wouldn't work with regular dies. Proper headspacing was not enough. Proper shoulder set-back was not enough. My choices became, 1. File down the case holder to allow the case to go into the die another .004" (not reasonable on a progressive shellplate) 2. buy a small-based sizer. Guess which answer I chose?

The other result of answer #1, was it necessarily would also bump the shoulder back. According to my headspace guage what I needed was LESS shoulder setback not more. The problem went away with the .001" to .002" smaller diameter base, 1/2" from case head.

Gun was a DPMS AR chambered at near min. specs for .308 Win. BTW, in that particular rifle, the cheap blue box Federals I bought for plinking (before I was set up to reload) would only chamber the first round. Following rounds would not cycle...scratches around the last half inch, showed a base diameter problem not seen in Remington or Winchester factory fodder.

I always have said buy normal dies....then only if you need it, order a small-based sizer. But consider that the new RCBS "AR" sets also include taper crimp seaters. If you are not going to crimp military-style into cannelures, then I see no reason not to start with the small-based die/taper crimp die set. Resizing at most .002" under at the base is not that hard on brass and is certainly preferable to pushing the shoulder back .004" more than you need any day.

 

[Walkalong]

That doesn't sound like the dies fault, that sounds like a gun with a chamber smaller than SAMMI minimum.

RCBS is into selling dies, and things like "AR dies" sells. I think it is excellent sales technique.

They include a small base die to get less complaints from folks who are sloppy reloaders. IMHO of course.

If you have a tool to show you what you are actually doing when sizing your brass, and not guessing, the small base dies are not going to be needed 95% or better of the time.

 

[Walkalong]

I use standard dies for my AR. I size to fit a case gauge with them. Nary a problem. The older RCBS manuals suggest small base dies only if the standard dies are not working for you.

While I agree that most chambers are big enough to make small base dies unnecessary, RCBS isn't into "gimmicks."

RCBS makes them to prevent call backs from owners of AR rifles who have chambers small enough to need those dies. Its not a die problem its a gun chamber problem

.
We really pretty much said the same thing.

 

[gamestalker]

RCBS makes good precision dies, great quality. I haven't been able to wear any of mine out.
Though we would normally desire or strive for as tight a tollerance as is functionally possible for a bolt action, the opposite would apply to some extent for an auto loading action to prevent feeding extraction issues. It may also extend the life span of your brass by some degree too.

 

[bigedp51]

MtnCreek
Mr. P51,

The problem is when we use brass from a 'bigger' chamber (like SAW fired 5.56) and load them for our tight chambered autoloaders. The small base die will size the lower portion of the case body about a 0.001 or so smaller than the normal FL die.

I don't know this to be true, but it would make since to me that a case fired in a loose MG chamber would be more likely to spring back beyond SAAMI chamber specs after re-sizing.

MtnCreek

Forgive me if I sound harsh, BUT I have been reloading for over 40 years and have NEVER had to use a small base die, and I know what they are used for.

Below are two five gallon buckets of .223/5.56 brass so I will repeat myself, military chambers are longer and fatter. And a commercial SAAMI resizing die will size the case more than it is needed to be squeezed into a military chamber. Having said that not all makes of dies will size (squeeze) the base of cartridge case at the base as small or down as far as other dies.

When my Lyman .223 die set wouldn't size the base enough I bought a RCBS .223 die set and that die did size the base more. I use the Lyman FL die for partial FL resizing just because it does NOT over resize the base of the case.

Below mixed once fired .223/5.56 brass, Remington, Federal and Military and NO small base die.

 

[MtnCreek]

I know what they are used for

Enlighten us

 

[Skyshot]

I use the small base dies for my AR's and mini-14's. Would have probably got the standard full length sizer dies, but I got the SB die and bullet seater die for ten bucks, couldn't pass that up. I've never had a stuck case yet after thousands of rounds and use the old RCBS case lube-2 and foam pad. I use the same load for all the rifles and it works great with no malfunctions.