Real Armor

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Jim Watson

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How thick does modern high quality armor plate have to be to stop a pistol bullet? Just stop, dents and gouges acceptable as long as it is not penetrated, I am not thinking of a target to be shot at all day.

How thick is 14th century plate armor?

See what I am thinking? Would it be feasible to dress an entry man cap-a- pie?
 
You need to read "A Connecticut Yankee in King Arthur's Court" for the answer. Mr. Clements was way ahead of his time.
 
The firearms to be defended against during the heyday of plate armor were considerably less powerful than the ones commonly found today. Full coverage against modern pistols would be way too heavy and bulky. That's why we have to settle for protecting the most vital areas.

You see breastplates from the 16th-17th centuries with dents in the center. This is actually evidence of proof testing. The armorer would fire a pistol at his finished armor. If it only caused a dent, the customer would be satisfied that it afforded an acceptable level of protection. I don't doubt that most modern pistol rounds would punch right through.

Protecting every inch of the wearer's body was something only for the rich and noble, and even at that, the full armors were worn only for ceremonial and jousting purposes. For actual battle, mobility would have been more important than 100% protection. There was also considerable difference between armor designed for combat on horseback, and armor for combat on foot.
 
You need to read "A Connecticut Yankee in King Arthur's Court" for the answer. Mr. Clements was way ahead of his time.
The conclusion of the book had the Yankee and his trainees mowing down knights with Gatling guns. Their armor didn't do them a bit of good. Of course this was meant to be a parody: King Arthur's time was long before the days of plate armor.
 
They didn't have chrome moly steel or titanium in the 14th century, either.
I am talking about old style, modern material.
I am talking about an entry man who only has to get from the SWAT truck to the suspect's door.
 
They didn't have chrome moly steel or titanium in the 14th century, either.
I am talking about old style, modern material.
I am talking about an entry man who only has to get from the SWAT truck to the suspect's door.
So RoboCop? The Auto 9 is pretty dang cool, should definitely add one of those in the mix while we re at it.
 
There are three interconnected factors to be considered: mobility, firepower, and protection. To increase one, you have to reduce the others, while staying within an overall weight limit. (It's said that a practical fighting load cannot exceed 60 pounds.) Complete armor protection would probably take the full 60 pound allowance leaving nothing for a weapon and ammunition, as well as all the other things the man would have to carry.

This is an age-old debate. It was critical, for example, in the design of battleships between the World Wars. Some countries opted for speed, others for big guns, and still others for heavy armor belts.
 
I would think a ballistic shield made of 3/8 inch AR500 would do the job.

I'm not sure "full body" could be kept within reasonable weight limits, but a full size, curved shield would be no heavier than a steel silhouette. good for anythying up to and including 7.62X51 NATO.
 
What pistol?

A Carhartt can stop some of them, some can go through 1” plate steel.
 
I would think a ballistic shield made of 3/8 inch AR500 would do the job.

I'm not sure "full body" could be kept within reasonable weight limits, but a full size, curved shield would be no heavier than a steel silhouette. good for anythying up to and including 7.62X51 NATO.

That's going to take both hands just to carry it. That's a lot of weight. 15+ lbs per square foot. Say your shied is 48"x16", that's 5 sq ft or 75 lbs plus.
 
What pistol?

A Carhartt can stop some of them, some can go through 1” plate steel.

A little hyperbole? I would not want to try to stop a 22 Short with my Carharts, I have shot through 2x4's with sub-sonic 22 Shorts. I also don't believe there are any pistols even 460 S&W or 500 S&W that can shoot through 1-inch of steel. There are not many shoulder fired rifles that could penetrate an inch of steel, even mild steel let alone a proper piece of armor plating.

Most AP rounds for the 50 BMG are only rated to defeat 2.2cm (~7/8 inch) armor at 91m. 50 BMG would probably hole 25mm of mild steel but not much more than that.

My brother once nearly shot through a piece of hanging 3/8 thick AR500 armor with his 7mm RUM. It created a bulge/plug of steel at the impact point and that bulge had fractured part of the way around but stopped the bullet. Several 416 Rigby hits later the plug finally fell out and the plate was bent pretty good. The 7mm RUM did more localized damage than the 416 Rigby but the Rigby sure bent the heck out of it and sent it flying further.
 
That's going to take both hands just to carry it. That's a lot of weight. 15+ lbs per square foot. Say your shied is 48"x16", that's 5 sq ft or 75 lbs plus.

Good points. but it is to be hoped that a couple members of your entry team will be big enough to be up to 75 pounds. That's half of what spec-ops troops carry,and "SWAT" guys kinda like to think of themselves as "Spec-ops" guys!:D

And they will only carry it from the van to just inside the door.
 
What pistol?

A Carhartt can stop some of them, some can go through 1” plate steel.

Are you referring to the shooting by NYPD with Speer Gold Dots? Initial reports found the bullets in the guy's jacket. Subsequent reports showed the bullets were stopped by the jacket after they had penetrated the body.
 
You know they are making so much headway in the field of soft exoskeletons that enhance strength or at least limit fatigue by a very measurable amount. I could see a combination advanced technology in that regard married to next generation carbon fiber and ceramics to offer some viable "heavy armor" that could be rated to at least limit the damage of rifle that would be a through and through with current armor.

Or we could just go all Ned Kelly and cobbled together some bullet proof armor out of scrap:D
 
Relative to the Connecticut Yankee reference, Twain killed off most of the gentry with electricity and fire rather than projectiles.
 
it is to be hoped that a couple members of your entry team will be big enough to be up to 75 pounds. That's half of what spec-ops troops carry,and "SWAT" guys kinda like to think of themselves as "Spec-ops" guys!
Special ops guys might carry 150 lbs. as an existence load, but they can't actually fight with that much weight. Studies have shown that about 60 lbs. is an upper limit for a fighting load. This has been a constant throughout history, going back to ancient times. In fact designers of combat equipments, such as the U.S. M1910 set or the British P08/P37 sets, make allowance for shedding the excess weight when going from existence to fighting configuration.
 
If we're talking pistol bullets only, then by and large anything that will pass the NIJ .06 level IIIA testing protocol will work. No need to go armor plate. This is pretty much the standard for most LE soft body armor these days. Now the NIJ .06 testing protocol does not address every round capable of being fired from a handgun (a TC in .30-06 for example), but it does address the VAST majority of the stuff an LEO is likely to see. The N. Hollywood shootout, basically was the result of the bad guys doing what you're thinking of, they just used surplus vests to wrap around themselves. It worked pretty dang well. There are companies who make armor systems that are similar to what you're discussing, IIRC they weight in the 60 lb range for a full body head to toe setup. With a lot of that weight being in the ballistic visor for the helmet. A bombtech suit is pretty similar, but it is tested with a different standard so it's not technically "ballistically resistant". These setups when done professionally use an internal harness to hold it all in place, distributing the weight much like a good camping pack does. It is tiresome to run in, and the arms do get heavy after a bit. They are also stupid hot, and don't breath at all.

If you want to talk shields, a large pistol rated ballistic shield (40"-48" in length) usually runs around 30-40 lbs. The viewport is actually the heaviest part of the whole shield, so that's why they are either tiny, or the shield is stupid heavy. That's why you rarely see rifle rated shields with viewports if they're man portable, as the viewport weighs about 1/3-1/2 lb per square inch IIRC. Over in Europe they like using semi-rigid or completely soft ballistic blankets, and then having a ballistic visor. You trade off a little coverage area, and save a lot of weight, but add some of it to your helmet.

The 5'-6' rolling of whole body shields are usually above 50 lbs, but these are pretty rare anymore.

Adding a light, which is a necessity really depends on the company. Safariland makes a great light kit in terms of output, but it might as well be a pair of car headlights and a 12 volt battery for the weight.

Up until this past December I was a full time LE firearms and tactics instructor, and terminal ballistics and armor fell under my purview as well. I'll be happy to answer any questions, thought nothing OPSEC of course (which considering almost everything materials related is all open source, there's not much to worry about there).
 
There were some matches where we covered targets with clothing, bad idea for taping and scoring but a 230 grain cast bullet at 125 PF didn’t make it past an old jacket.

Maddi Griffin did the 50 BMG pistol

E8748D04-751B-4FA6-8F41-F1C8BFD06B39.jpeg

And it’s pretty hard on steel.

C5160E94-E89B-4F9A-929F-69E0EAB70F01.jpeg 4898F5BA-4612-422B-A1E9-AA7B11D62EDF.jpeg

At the right angle, thin sheetmetal will keep you safe from 9mm.
 
There are companies who make armor systems that are similar to what you're discussing, IIRC they weight in the 60 lb range for a full body head to toe setup

That is what I was looking for. Are these Kevlar, plate, or combination?
60 lbs sounds about right, I have read of traditional "sword proof" armor at 40 lbs.
 
I bet I could make a shield, 60lbs or less, that would protect an average size man from any non-magnum handgun rounds. Made from AR400 steel and a small laminated polycarbonate/acrylic viewing port. Said shield would be 4ft tall, so wearing soft armor on the lower legs would probably be necessary. And it would probably be easy enough to add quick attach/detach wheels to make it possible to be rolled while in a crouched position, and not expose vital areas.

I have an idea for a lighter weight system but I'm not sure how I would go about putting a viewing port in it.

But I think the better option is just driving the armored van straight up to the door when possible.
 
That is what I was looking for. Are these Kevlar, plate, or combination?
60 lbs sounds about right, I have read of traditional "sword proof" armor at 40 lbs.

Usually the torso and pelvis feature hard plate, the rest is normally soft armor. For an EOD suit the collar might also be rigid, as those come up quite a bit higher for protection.

I bet I could make a shield, 60lbs or less, that would protect an average size man from any non-magnum handgun rounds. Made from AR400 steel and a small laminated polycarbonate/acrylic viewing port. Said shield would be 4ft tall, so wearing soft armor on the lower legs would probably be necessary. And it would probably be easy enough to add quick attach/detach wheels to make it possible to be rolled while in a crouched position, and not expose vital areas.

A 4' level IIIA shield with a viewport and no light kit, usually runs about 35-40lbs. If you skip the viewport, you can get them down to 25-30lbs for a 5 footer, or stay at 4' and go to Level III which is rifle rated (rifle viewports are super heavy). Level IIIA is rated for .357mag (I don't recall if it'll do .41 or .44 off the top of my head), and while it's not rated it'll stop a shotgun slug, though it will have very large backface deformation. If you want to go European, a soft shield with no viewport around 5'-5.5' tall weights in at about 10-15lbs (that's the older ones, I'm sure the newer ones are even lighter). Add about 5-8lbs for a ballistic visor on your helmet that will is pistol rated.
 
A little hyperbole? I would not want to try to stop a 22 Short with my Carharts, I have shot through 2x4's with sub-sonic 22 Shorts. I also don't believe there are any pistols even 460 S&W or 500 S&W that can shoot through 1-inch of steel. There are not many shoulder fired rifles that could penetrate an inch of steel, even mild steel let alone a proper piece of armor plating.

Most AP rounds for the 50 BMG are only rated to defeat 2.2cm (~7/8 inch) armor at 91m. 50 BMG would probably hole 25mm of mild steel but not much more than that.

My brother once nearly shot through a piece of hanging 3/8 thick AR500 armor with his 7mm RUM. It created a bulge/plug of steel at the impact point and that bulge had fractured part of the way around but stopped the bullet. Several 416 Rigby hits later the plug finally fell out and the plate was bent pretty good. The 7mm RUM did more localized damage than the 416 Rigby but the Rigby sure bent the heck out of it and sent it flying further.

There's a huge difference between armor steel and mild steel. A .50 BMG AP can penetrate 1" thick mild steel easily.

https://www.survivalmonkey.com/threads/short-range-media-penetration-by-50-bmg-ap-rounds.49556/
 
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