Red dot scopes for pistol

[pepperbelly]

I shoot falling plate and bullseye matches with my MkII and a SA 1911 .45acp. I have reddot scopes on both. I am happy with the C-More on my .45 and the Leupold Gilmore on my .22, but reading the Encyclopedia of Bullseye site article on redd ot scopes makes me wonder. They show the possible error from parallax at 25 and 50 yards that the scopes tested showed.
It looks like the Ultradot shows the least error, but the scopes I use were not tested.
Does anyone know how these 2 scopes compare to the Ultradot? I am thinking about buying an Ultradot for my MkII, but if the error of my Gilmore isn't much more than the Ultradot I might save the money.
The Ultradot shows to be a fair amount better than the Tasco Pro Point they compared to.



Jim

 

[fecmech]

If your hold and head position are consistant the paralax if it's present is not a big problem. It is easy to check for paralax in your present optics. Just set the guns up on bags on the bench lined up on a target at the range you shoot at so that they can not move. Then simply move your head up and down or side to side behind the gun and see if the dot moves
That said IMO if your not a high Master class shooter I would not worry much about it.

 

[pepperbelly]

I don't remember where the class cut-off range numbers are- my high score so far is an 824 out of a possible 900.
The reason I am thinking about this is that occaisionally have flyers I can't explain. I will be holding steadily on the black, hold through the shot breaking, and have a flyer out in the 7 ring even though the dot never leaves the black. The flyers are usually either right or left- very seldom high or low.
Recently I installed a VQ LLV upper. While testing to see if it would feed the ammo I want to use I had a few flyers despite holding the butt on sandbags.
If this Gilmore scope has some parallax issues it wuld explain a lot.

Jim

 

[bdutton]

I have shot the tasco pro-point, ultradot 4 dot and ultradot 4 dot master. The 4dot master is the best. Very little paralax and excellent dot precision in the master model. I recommend it. The 4 dot has some paralax and the tasco has more.

 

[Blackfork]

Buy it.

Buy the most expensive one. Buy the Ultra 4 Master. You won't have to buy it later and you won't have an extra sight. Buy it and forget about the price. Forget about paralax. Forget about optical sights because you will have the best one. Save money on something else.

 

[pepperbelly]

I found a site with Ultradots for sale. They list the original, the 4 dot and the Match dot, but not the 4 dot master.
Do you happen to have a link to a site that sells them?

Jim

 

[pepperbelly]

I found a website that sells Ultradot products only. They only list the Match Dot, but no 4 dot master.
Is the Match Dot what you were thinking of?
I will probably buy one within a week or so. They are only $189.00 for the Match Dot.

Jim

 

[bdutton]

Buy it at Larrysguns.com. He is the US distributor for Ultradot. His service is also excellent. Anything goes wrong with it, just send it to him and he will fix it for free. I believe for life.

 

[JackOfAllTradesMasterAtNone]

How can flyers be blamed on parallax?

The change of angular position of two observations of a single object relative to each other as seen by an observer, caused by the motion of the observer. Simply put, it is the apparent shift of an object against the background that is caused by a change in the observer's position.

If the shooter does everything the same, every time the trigger is pulled, then the bullets would reach target at minute differences. Parallax differences in quality reddot scopes used out to 25 or even 50 yds is minimal. Ok, the artical does list the ProPoint as having a horizontal Parallax error of some 2 1/2". Are your flyers horizontal or vertical? 10 oclock? 4 oclock? What I don't like about so many Internet articals is that they don't date their material. He doesn't discuss Collimating Reflex sights at all. Still, read his last paragraph if you're dead set that Parallax is your issue. I've used cheap tube reddots and now have an ATN Ultra Digital that is Parallax free as a Collimating Reflex sight. But the only reason I have it is for a 2moa dot. When I bought it, I was not concerned with Parallax for the ProPoint I was using at the time.

I don't own one, but my next sight will be the UltraDot L/T. It is a reflex sight with a smaller dot than the Ultra Four.

That said, I did a short survey on the Bullseye Listsrv in January. Almost everyone that responded that uses optical sight on their competition gun is using an UntraDot.

Look at http://www.ultradotwest.com/ultradot_2008_016.htm You might want to ask them what 'Maximum Retical Movement at 100yds' is. Is that Parallax or windage/elevation adjustment? Why is this N/A for the Reflex sight?

I'm no sight expert, but I still have to believe that flyers are not to be blamed on the sight. If I were you, I'd shoot with iron sights for a while to see if your flyers still exist. If you've been shooting gallery rimfire BE this winter, and you've got flyers at 50 feet... Parallax probably isn't the issue. Harsh reality- It's you. Uh, Been There, Done That.

By the way, 91% BE scores puts you here:
High Master . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 97.00 and above
Master . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 95.00 to 96.99
Expert . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 90.00 to 94.99
Sharpshooter . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 85.00 to 89.99
Marksman . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Below 85.00

-Steve

P.S. I re-read this and well, I don't mean to be rude, and I'm sorry that my writing may sound a bit this way. If you're only getting the occasional flyer, (your sight isn't broken), then I just don't think it's your sight.

 

[Blackfork]

Ultradots

You guys are getting me so amped up about Ultradots....plus it's snowing in Texas and I'm housebound....I'm about to buy one myself!

 

[pepperbelly]

Thanks Jack. I didn't take your post as being at all rude.
I still haven't found out if my Leupold/Gilmore has the same amount of parallax as the reddots they tested. I may still get an Ultradot matchdot for the smaller dot size if for no other reason. My sight has an 8moa dot, and a smller dot may help my scores just for that reason.
My flyers are usually to the side, and thinking about it more go left than right. I have noticed that I sometimes do not have the dot centered in the scope, but I will be working hard with my brother on my stance. He is a champion rifle shooter and we think he can help. That might solve things by itself.
I haven't been shooting indoors- I don't even know if there are any indoor leagues around here. Our bullseye is about to start very soon after the daylight savings time change, so I really need to get more practice in with this new upper.

Jim

 

[JackOfAllTradesMasterAtNone]

Oh, fliers frustrate me too!

I had to dig out a target from the past... I shot a duello league last year. Open site @25yds. I certainly can't blame the fliers on the sights. It was all me.

-Steve

 

[bdutton]

JackOfAllTradesMasterAtNone I had to dig out a target from the past... I shot a duello league last year. Open site @25yds. I certainly can't blame the fliers on the sights. It was all me.

+1 Ditto... its easy to get distracted on a subject when we make assumptions about the scopes we use. 99% of the time a flier has NOTHING to do with the scope and everything to do with the user.

 

[lil ski]

I agree with Jack and bdutton about most mistakes are the shooters but I did find one problem with my reloads was causing fliers for me. Since I swiched to a 45 for center fire I figured I would load up my brass and start, all my brass is mixxed head stamp. One day I would shoot fine the next I would get 1 or 2 fliers. I thought it was just me so I kept practicing. One of guys I was shooting with ask if my brass was all the same I told him no. To make a long story short I got all the same head stamp brass and now my fliers are way down. Just my 2cents

 

[JackOfAllTradesMasterAtNone]

Although I think he's only talking about his rimfire gun. I agree with having all one headstamp. Still, there's plenty of writing on the net that say that's an old wives tale. Next someone is going to advise that we start separating our rimfire ammo by rim thickness like the rifle shooters do.

But even quality target rimfire ammo does have some inconsistencies. I ran out of the Aguila I had set aside for league. So my son's been shooting some Federal Auto Match. I shot some of it yesterday. One, sounded like it was a squib. It was a flyer '8'.

-Steve

 

[pepperbelly]

What I am trying to do is eliminate any possible errors I can, then any errors would be just me. I haven't been able to use anything close to match ammo until I got my VQ LLV upper. Now it will feed the good ammo, like RWS Rifle Target and Eley Sport. Until I get a lot better I am not going to go to any better mmo.
The reddot having a possible parallax error seems to be compounding any errors I have. I figure if my wobble is about the 8-ring, and then if the ammo isn't up to a tight group, and then the reddot is off a little I could possible have a flyer 3" out from everything added together.

Jim

 

[md2lgyk]

You "haven't been able to use anything close to match ammo" in a Mk II??? Then there's something wrong with it.

I'd be worrying more about my breathing and trigger control than any alleged parallax errors. That aside, Ultradot is the only way to go. I've had the same one mounted on the slide of my bullseye 1911 for over 15 years with nary a problem. There's an identical but newer one on my Mk II.

Another thing to consider: For some reason, rimfire guns are usually more sensitive to ammo brand than centerfire guns. If you want to eliminate a real source of error, find a Ransom rest and shoot some groups with as many brands as you can. You'd be amazed at the difference. My Mk II shoots better with the Remington stuff that comes 550 rounds in a milk carton than it does with Federal Champion and some flavors of Eley.

 

[pepperbelly]

The original barrell in my MkII looks likke a smallll piece at the bottom of the feedramp is broken. When I shoot the Federal bulk ammo or Winchester Super-X I have no problems. When I tried shooting Eley Sport, RWS Rifle Target, some white box DCM ammo, and a couple of others I would have a round jam against the bottom of the ramp hard enough to slice into the nose of the bullet.
When I installed the VQ upper I found that it would feed that ammo with no problems.
Another reason I am thinking of going to the ltradot is that I had to send in a couple of the Leupold/Gilmore scopes for repair. It cost $50.00 each time I sent them in, and the last one came back with a different problem. They will fix that for free, but they have a very slow turnaround- about 90 days. The lifetime warranty on the Ultradots looks very good. I also want to be able to change the dot size for different shooting.
I will probably install the VQ upper with the Ultradot on another MkII I have, after I change the trigger and sear and use it for bullseye, and put my original barrel back on my stainless pistol with the Leupold/Gilmore sight for falling plate matches.

Jim

 

[Walkalong]

my next sight will be the UltraDot L/T.

I have on on a 1911 Colt .45 with a Weigand mount. It does real well. A bit touchy to get on target, but it has held zero just fine. When I do my part the bullets go where they are supposed to. I don't shoot pistols competitively, but I have shot a lot of Benchrest, and I know an accurate gun/scope when I use one.

I would like to see them refine the dot strength control on the L/T sights. They have, well mine at least, a bit of starburst to the dot. It is auto controlled so it can not be adjusted. The J-Point I have is the same way, but worse. The L/T is a better sight, although a bit bigger.

 

[Peakbagr]

I have 4 or is it 5 Ultradots with the variable dot and brightness levels.
Been shooting them for years. The only problem is that occasionally I need to replace one of the lithium batteries.
They are the best dot sights made, and UD and Larry's Guns stands behind them with a lifetime warranty.