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Reloading PITA complaints. LOL uggg!

Discussion in 'Handloading and Reloading' started by Texasgrillchef, Jul 10, 2019.

  1. Texasgrillchef

    Texasgrillchef Member

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    To keep things simple i will just refer to 45 colt standard pressure (14k) loads with .451/.452 projectiles.

    As we all know the availability of .451/451 projectiles is huge and numerous, varrying in weights from 135grains to 400 grains. Comprised of all lead, copper or brass jacketed, copper plated, and even solid copper projectiles. In various configurations from hollow point, fmj, jhp, swc, rn, fp, xtp, xp, xd, fracturing, and and even those can be in multiple configurations.

    Obviously all these factors have an effect on friction in the barrel as well, increasing or decreasing. The resistance obviously having an effect on pressures.

    Then of course we have dozens of different powders we can use as well. Obviously some powders work better with one projectile in the same gun and not so well with others. ie.... powder A might work great with a 185gr jhp while powder B works better with a 250gr FPFMJ.

    Thats all logical and to be expected. Im not the least bit surprised by that information.

    My complaint comes from the publishers of various different loading manuals. I do have the latest editions from Western powders, Hornady and Lyman, as well as individual load data from Lehigh Defense for some of their projectiles.

    The combination of these manuals is awesome. I have learned a-lot. I do understand that at least in physical printed form one cant list load data for every powder with every possible projectile. I think though with the internet it could easily be possible though. Input the powder you want, the projectile, and your caliber casing and then it outputs the appropriate info.

    Thus my complaint. I have projectiles that i wish to use for my colt 45 loads that i know perfectly well and logically speaking there is no reason why they couldnt be used safely and effectively in my colt 45’s. By effectively i mean creating a consistent accurate load for the purpose needed.

    Example a 250 grain flat nose copper plated projectile. I cant find any load data for this bullet.
    Nor can i find one for a 185grain hornady XTP.

    Yet i can find load data for 185gr JHP, or 250grain FMJ’s etc etc...

    Maybe for long time handloaders you know how to work around these issues. I am still a newbie and i openly admit i dont have enough knowledge to know what would be a safe starting point. I am smart enough to figure out logically what maybe possible, but feel like i lack enough know how to be safe.

    So that is why i have this post.

    When you have a projectile that you know logically can be used, but cant find data for it. How do you figure out what load to start safely using it?

    I have 3 projectiles i would like to use in my colt 45’s at standard pressure.
    Using any of the following powders
    Power Pistol
    Accurate #5
    Unique

    The projectiles
    250 grain Flat Point full Copper plated
    185 grain Hornady XTP
    230 grain RN Full copper plate “FMJ”

    Hornady lists their 250gr xtp with acc #5 at 7.7 to 9.9

    Western lists the same projectile at 9.9 to 11 with the same #5.

    Why the diff? Which one? But i also do have that projectile. Western lists the 200 grain XTP with #5 at 10.4 to 11.5 and a 230 grain XTP at 9.9 to 11.

    So what should i use for a 185grain XTP?
    They list a 185grain JHP at 10.8 to 12?

    Which leaves me wondering about my 230grain and 250 grain “fmj” rn and fp projectiles.

    Thoughts?
     
  2. Texasgrillchef

    Texasgrillchef Member

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    Here is the other thing i noticed a big difference between the manuals of hornady and western data using the same bullet and powder.

    1. Hornady doesnt give different powder data for a 230grain fmj or xtp bullet. Western gives different data for xtp then fmj.

    2. Example for #5 from western for 230 grain FMJ they list 7.1 to 8.3 while hornady lists 6.5 to 7.9 for the same bullet and powder??? Thats a fairly big difference in range???

    Its hornady’s bullet, but Westerns powders.
    Same diff applies to other powders as well between Western and Hornady.
     
  3. kcofohio
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    kcofohio Contributing Member

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    Different powder lot #s, different test barrels, maybe different atmospheres, may be part of the explanation you're looking for.
     
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  4. Engineer1911
    • Contributing Member

    Engineer1911 Contributing Member

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    Reloading manuals / data are guides to get started, but are not absolute final conditions. ^^^^ As stated above, conditions and test equipment change. ^^^^ In an old Speer Reloading manual, ~ 1976, a standard factory 357 magnum 158 grain jacketed load was fired in 8 different revolvers with barrel lengths from 4" to 8-3/8". The "slowest" revolver was an 8" Python, the fastest a 4" S&W M19. Two M19 revolvers were used in the test, muzzle velocity was 150 FPS different.

    Accurate Arms powder had variations, lot to lot, in its burn rate. Western powder is more consistent lot to lot. My Accurate Arms powder and AA Reloading data #7 date from the same time frame. I have not had any problems. AA Data #1 and todays powder in a 223 / 5.56 case may be problematic. This paragraph is based on personal experience and conversations with 'professionals' in the reloading / ammo industry. I have consumed approximately 75 pounds of Accurate arms powder in the last 30 years, AA 2015 and AA 2230 to shoot out rifling 3 gun barrels.

    To answer your load questions, STARTING load data for a jacketed bullet in one weight will work safely with any other jacketed bullet of the same weight. Hand gun powder charges and chamber pressures are low enough so the starting powder charge is safe with the same weight bullet.
     
    km101 likes this.
  5. FROGO207

    FROGO207 Member

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    Some good questions and thought to your post OP.

    You can use the data from a nearly identical projectile (hollow point for hollow point or FMJ for flatpoint/SWC etc. Use lead data for lead and jacketed data for jacketed. Solid projectiles use proprietary data and may require a call or email to maker for data. Also if your projectile weight is not listed you can use the data for the next heavier bullet of the same approximate type. Handgun data will show you the shortest length that is safe with that combo of components. If there is a canalure use that instead of published length. For rifle use the OAL as a guide and start with the longest length that will cycle in the action and shorten as needed to make more accurate. Always start 10%below max and work up in steps until you get an accurate load, while keeping records of what you are doing. Go slow to start, you are not trying for a record. You are making a precision round of high explosives and that deserves your undivided attention and skill. Hope this helps you.:thumbup:
    ETA I see I type slow.:oops:
     
    Last edited: Jul 10, 2019
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  6. drband

    drband Member

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    ^^^^THIS^^^^
    You can take that to the bank!
    You will likely never find exact brand and type of projectile for everything you want to load, but you can still work up safe, effective loads using those procedures. It’s the way of the handloader!
     
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  7. Texas10mm

    Texas10mm Member

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  8. Rule3

    Rule3 Member

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  9. mdi

    mdi Member

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    Just a couple thoughts; before you gather any components, find a load in your reloading manuals (if different manuals vary on powder charges, start with the lowest published charge). As mentioned above reloading manuals differ because different powder lots, different primer lots, even different bullet lots (bullet alloy can vary slightly and have an effect on pressures). Different cases can have different internal case capacities. Each testing lab will have different equipment and even though the pressure equipment is "certified", there may be some differences. And I would question the results if XXX manual had the exact same results/data as YYY manual data.

    Plated bullets are relatively new and since reloading manual testing is a very involved, expensive undertaking there isn't much data published. I just used lead bullet data.

    I normally tell newer reloaders to keep it K.I.S.S., stick with the data in published reloading manuals, and gather all these answers as you gather more experience. I know sometimes this is difficult because "sometimes a guy just gotta know"...
     
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  10. Walkalong

    Walkalong Moderator

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    What, 30 years plus... much, much, more tested plated data out there from multiple sources now. :)

    But yea, for newbies one thing many do is just buy what components the Speer/Hornady/Lyman/etc book used and follow exactly. I know I sure did the first time out.

    Then when we get a little experience and gain confidence we branch out to "similar" bullets of the same "type" etc, etc.
    No, they are not absolute, but they are much more than "guides". :)
     
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  11. Texasgrillchef

    Texasgrillchef Member

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    Thanks everyone, your input is much appreciated!

    I am going to get a chronograph to help things out quite a bit. I have read quite a few articles and other things that gives quite a guideline on figuring out under/over pressure for your loads.
    Much more accurately then basing it on accuracy.

    Accuracy is a big problem for me for some reason. I am not very consistent. Example at 15 yards, with a magazine of 15 rounds, many times with my 9mm i can get a good 2” grouping. Chsnge up for a nee mag and my next grouping i can get better the. Maybe a 6” grouping. Change mags again and my next grouping is back down to 3”, next mag 4” etc.... i never get worse then a 6” grouping and my average for 100 rounds are 3.5” groupings of 10. So for me trying to figure accuracy on my loads isnt an easy thing to do, unless i start getting worse than a 6” grouping. Which has never been the case with any of my test loadings (on my 9mm’s)

    I did have one batch of 9mm that the majority keyholed. I upped the load by .3 of a grain and they stopped keyholeing, so that was a clear problem with not a good load!
     
  12. Rule3

    Rule3 Member

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    Once again. Keep it Simple!
    You are in a "information overload"
    Concentrate on ONE caliber, one bullet one powder rather than jumping all over.
    You had a previous thread on three levels of 45 Colt.
    Master the low level 45 Colt, much easier and forgiving than 9mm to load.

    Accuracy is more the shooter than some specific load. Good loads certainly help accuracy, but it's a fine line.

    https://www.thehighroad.org/index.p...45-colt-hot-loads.853230/page-2#post-11175795
     
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  13. mdi

    mdi Member

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    Sorta on subject; for the more historical knowledgeable fellers, when did jacketed bullets begin being used/available? I don'rt remember reading about plated, commercially available, bullets before 2005 or so (which compared to plain jacketed bullets is relatively new)...
     
  14. LiveLife

    LiveLife Member

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    Yes, keep it simple.

    I started reloading for USPSA match loads in the 90s using Montana Gold jacketed bullets and reloading practice rounds with Berry's plated bullets. Since these bullets differed from bullets listed in published load data I referenced (Not much plated load data back then), I was advised by my reloading/shooting mentor (who shot bullseye matches) to use more conservative load data for my initial powder work up.

    Over the decades, most of my 600,000+ reload rounds were loaded with bullets that differed from published load data and I continued the practice of using more conservative load data and in recent years, when significantly shorter OAL/bullet seating depth was used than published, I decreased the start/max charges by .2-.3 gr.


    DISCLAIMER: Use unpublished loads at your own risk. Post made for educational purposes only. My experience may not be the same for you and your pistol.

    In cases where there are no published load data like for IMR Red, I would reference comparable burn rate powder load data and "work down" from initial start charge until slide barely cycled and worked up monitoring accuracy trends - https://www.thehighroad.org/index.p...ectan-ba-9-5-ba-9.817796/page-2#post-10520702
     
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  15. ATLDave

    ATLDave Member

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    Then you may be one of the shooters whose accuracy is most helped by handloading... but not because you are making more mechanically-accurate ammunition. Instead, by carefully selecting powders and loads, you can get lower recoil from guns than you can get from factory ammo. Almost everyone finds it easier to be accurate with less recoil, and the more people struggle with accuracy, the more likely this is to be true.
     
    Last edited: Jul 11, 2019
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  16. Texasgrillchef

    Texasgrillchef Member

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    Thats an interesting thought. When im shooting paper targets and not mellons bottles and other fun things. I shoot rapid fire emptying a mag as quickly as I can. (Using the previously mentioned groupings.) when i take my time 2-3 seconds per shot my groupings are almost always in the 2”-4” range. Rarely worse then 4” unless there are other contributing factors involved.

    When I fire my 454 my best groupings are all within 6” and even then it takes me longer to fire off 6 rounds as fast i can then a whole 15 round mag of 9mm. Obviously because of the recoil on a 454 hand cannon versus that of a 9mm. My groupings on my M&P 45 acp are better then my 9, but i also have an awesome
    Muzzle break on my 45 acp and its a heavy gun.

    So your comment makes perfect sense about recoil.

    What do use for powder on 9mm, 45 acp, 45 colt (standard and high pressure) and 454 Casull. Although like i said in another post i havent loaded any 454 yet, although i do have the dies, cases, and 2 projectiles for the 454. (250gr fmj and a 350gr solid copper)

    I currently use power pistol ans silhouete for 9mm and 45 acp, accurate #5 for colt, and i was thinking about tcm or enforcer for the high pressure colt 45 and 454.

    I am able to get western powders at half price so have a preference for western powders.
     
  17. ATLDave

    ATLDave Member

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    Try AA#2 or ZIP for light recoil 9mm and 45 ACP rounds.
     
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