Reloading smokless cartridges with Pyrodex or Black Powder?

[Bwana John]

We have Pryodex and other Black Powder substitutes readily available in all of our LGS, and almost no smokeless powder available.

What do you have to consider when using black powder loads in a modern smokeless powder cartridge firearm?

Corrosion, fouling, low velocity, ignition problems, different pressures and burn rates...?

Id guess it works pretty well for awhile in a 45-70, 30-30, 44-40, 45Colt, 38 spl, and not so well in overbore cartridge like a 264 WM, or a gas or recoil operated repeater

The Pyrodex type powder I looked at the other day had a warning against using it in modern cartridge firearms.

 

[tyeo098]

Good God.

Black powder EXPLODES.
Smokeless BURNS.

Those are 2 COMPLETELY different things.

For cartidges originally designed for black powder, I.e 7.62x54R, 45-70, 30-30 etc if you find proper loads it will be fine.
Using pyrodex in 223 or 308 is asking for a broken rifle and a hospital bill.

In BP loadings, air is the enemy. The cases need to be full with BP. This is why old-timey rounds were so large compared to their bullet size, more powder means more oomph.

Recoil repeaters will work to some degree, like this guy here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j84J7VQ02CQ evern hickok45: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KfzQ4uKvE7c

 

[Bwana John]

For cartidges originally designed for black powder, I.e 7.62x54R, 45-70, 30-30 etc if you find proper loads it will be fine.
Using pyrodex in 223 or 308 is asking for a broken rifle and a hospital bill.

So.... why is it OK in a 30-40 Krag, and not OK in a 308 Win?

 

[plmitch]

For cartidges originally designed for black powder, I.e 7.62x54R, 45-70, 30-30 etc

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7.62x54r and .30-30 was a black powder round?


Some interesting ideas here.

 

[Bwana John]

This is why old-timey rounds were so large compared to their bullet size, more powder means more oomph.

I believe the ratio of case capacity to bullet diameter (and mass) favors the opposite with black powder rounds.

(The bullets needed to be bigger with BP rounds in order to impart more energy, because the black powder was not able to achieve high velocity.)

 

[788Ham]

You want to argue about something so asinine ? These folks are trying to tell you not to use BP in smokeless cartridges, if you can't find any smokeless powder that will work for the correct caliber needed, you'd best wait ! Not a wise thing to inter change powders like what you've suggested. YMMV

 

[Bwana John]

These folks are trying to tell you not to use BP in smokeless cartridges,

????? People reload and shoot black powder all the time in cartridges, there are whole shooting disciplines based on it.

Why is it OK with older cartridges and antique low pressure firearms and not OK in modern cartridges in modern firearms capable of much higher pressures? (when the ammunition for both is loaded to the same pressure and velocity levels, and the cartridges have similar bore to powder capacity ratios).

And what is different about Pyrodex?

 

[RPRNY]

30-40, 30-30 and 7.62x54r were all designed as smokeless cartridges. None were originally a BP cartridge and none will work well and safely with black powder. For the purposes of this discussion, assume that no bottleneck cartridge will work safely or well with black powder or black powder substitutes, which must be treated from a safety and handling perspective like black powder.

Many straight walled cases can be made to perform well with black powder. Black powder cartridge reloading is very unlike smokeless reloading and you really must use black powder safe powder handling equipment or you will go boom. There are many excellent resources available on the net that do a very good job of explaining how to successfully load black powder cartridges. Be very careful. Read lots before trying..

With regards to the dilemma you note, black powder availability, smokeless famine, a possible safe and fun option is to pick up a used 70s-90s sidekick fifty cal muzzleloader. You can be into muzzleloader shooting with a pound of T7, basic kit, 100 cast .495 balls and .010 lubes patches, starter, and a Hawken type rifle for $200. Percussion caps may be hard to find. It is a great deal of fun and much less complicated than black powder cartridge reloading.

 

[788Ham]

Go topside and read post #2. Black powder explodes, smokeless burns. Go ahead and load up your modern day firearms with BP, send some pics when you go to the range with them. Might behoove you to get a modern day reload book, or 3, read them, you'll eventually find the answers. Good luck !

 

[BigBore44]

It should work. BUT, there are two "problems". If you shoot jacketed bullets, the copper fowling can overlap the BP fouling because there is no lube on the bullets. So you have to be absolutely positive that you get all the copper fouling out after your done for the day. Otherwise you can have serious rust issues. The second "problem" is low(er) velocities. But that's not REALLY a problem. The modern guns WILL handle the pressure (obviously). But you better clean your gun like its your most prized possession.

 

[plmitch]

This is a great topic. Well worth watching.

 

[Bwana John]

It should work. BUT, there are two "problems". If you shoot jacketed bullets, the copper fowling can overlap the BP fouling because there is no lube on the bullets. So you have to be absolutely positive that you get all the copper fouling out after your done for the day. Otherwise you can have serious rust issues. The second "problem" is low(er) velocities. But that's not REALLY a problem. The modern guns WILL handle the pressure (obviously). But you better clean your gun like its your most prized possession.
__________________

-40, 30-30 and 7.62x54r were all designed as smokeless cartridges. None were originally a BP cartridge and none will work well and safely with black powder. For the purposes of this discussion, assume that no bottleneck cartridge will work safely or well with black powder or black powder substitutes, which must be treated from a safety and handling perspective like black powder.
Many straight walled cases can be made to perform well with black powder. Black powder cartridge reloading is very unlike smokeless reloading and you really must use black powder safe powder handling equipment or you will go boom. There are many excellent resources available on the net that do a very good job of explaining how to successfully load black powder cartridges. Be very careful. Read lots before trying..
With regards to the dilemma you note, black powder availability, smokeless famine, a possible safe and fun option is to pick up a used 70s-90s sidekick fifty cal muzzleloader. You can be into muzzleloader shooting with a pound of T7, basic kit, 100 cast .495 balls and .010 lubes patches, starter, and a Hawken type rifle for $200. Percussion caps may be hard to find. It is a great deal of fun and much less complicated than black powder cartridge reloading.
Today 10:02 PM

Thank You. That is the type of info I was looking for (Bottleneck vs strait wall)

The only firearm I actually considered it with is an old S&W M-66, using 38 special heavily greased lead bullets at low velocity.

The equipment for reloading BP (all brass?) was something I had not considered

The suggestion to break out the old Lyman .50 cal Deerstalker from the back of the safe was probabley the best idea going

 

[BigBore44]

Then yes, in a .38 it will be fine. You may find that the residue burn ring may be lots of fun to clean since the 66 is a 357. But other than that you should have no problems. Lots of smokin fun.

 

[savanahsdad]

down load the free Hodgdon manual from there site , they have cowboy loads using Pyrodex it tells you witch powder for witch cals. and how to load them ,

so yes you can

 

[WestKentucky]

38spl was a bp cartridge for a few months when it came into existence. Pyrodex works but it's terrible dirty. No way in hell I would consider it in a gun I cared about, and I have done it, just not in a nice gun.

 

[Steve C]

A couple things to remember about Black Powder and its smokeless substitutes. As mentioned they are explosive rather than a propellant. You need to be very careful not to just use your standard reloading equipment powder measures with these powders because a measure filled with Black or Pyrodex is an armed grenade right next to your face. These powders can ignite with a static electrical charge, this is why all BP measures and parts on powder flasks and horns are brass or other non ferrous material. BP specific measures are made for those that want to use a modern reloading set up or use a single load volumetric BP measure for muzzle loaders.

Black powder loads need to be compressed with the bullet tightly on top of the powder and absolutely no air space between powder and bullet base.

You should use a lube designed specifically for black powder bullets like SPG to reduce and keep the fouling soft. Old black powder revolver shooters used to use bear grease to coat the outside of the ball in the chamber to accomplished 2 things, to prevent flash over chamber fire and to reduce fouling.

 

[Don McDowell]

We have Pryodex and other Black Powder substitutes readily available in all of our LGS, and almost no smokeless powder available.

What do you have to consider when using black powder loads in a modern smokeless powder cartridge firearm?

Corrosion, fouling, low velocity, ignition problems, different pressures and burn rates...?

Id guess it works pretty well for awhile in a 45-70, 30-30, 44-40, 45Colt, 38 spl, and not so well in overbore cartridge like a 264 WM, or a gas or recoil operated repeater

The Pyrodex type powder I looked at the other day had a warning against using it in modern cartridge firearms.

The biggest thing you're going to run into loading some of the smokeless cartridges is the fouling. The smaller bores don't necessarily lend themselves to shooting blackpowder as they tend to foul the bore rather quick and you'll need to wipe after every shot.
Then you have to wash,rinse and dry the cases after every session to keep them from being attacked by the residue. The substitute powders are actually harder on cases than real black powder.
With that said if you decide to try it. The first thing you'll need is a cast bullet lubed with a know blackpowder lube. Then charge your cases until the base of the bullet makes firm contact with the powder.
To clean the gun simply take some damp patches (water works except for with blackhorn 209) run the patch down the bore on a jag, follow with a dry, continue until the patches come out clean, then oil the bore and you're done except for cleaning the cases.
If you use blackhorn 209 you need to go after it with a nylon brush wet with a regular bore cleaner, ie Hoppe's 9 etc, or Montana extremes cleaner specifically made for 209, follow up with dry and damp patches, and oil the bore when your done.

 

[Carl N. Brown]

I have shot cartridges designed for smokeless with BP and BP substitutes in the local gun club black powder cartridge matches.

One obvious good candidate for BP loads is 38 Special, which was orginally a BP cartridge anyway.

I have also shot a Mauser C96 with Triple Seven loads, and .30-30 (which was originally introduced as a smokeless powder cartridge in 1895) with Pyrodex RS, Pyrodex P and Triple Seven. ADDED: .30-30 full case of Pyrodex P, 150gr bullet, chrono'd slightly above 1500 ft per sec.

I would not shoot a gas operated gun with BP or BP substitute: the fouling residue is excessive and corrosive. Some gas systems like the m1 Carbine are not disassembled for cleaning and rely on non corrosive powder and primers.

CLEANING: Guns: I do a preliminary clean with patches with soapy water, dry, then oil at the range after the match; then a thorough clean at home, a follow up cleaning three days later, and a clean-inspection a week later. Casings: Reloadable cartridge casings are decapped, cleaned in hot soapy water outside and in, extrenally polished with brass cleaner, cleaned again in hot soapy water, rinsed in clear hot water, and sat in the window sill to dry in the sun. It is a lot of work: when mil surp 7.62x25 was cheap, I would pull the bullets and powder and use the primed non-reloadable casing to make loads for the Mauser.

 

[tyeo098]

762Rusky was originally designed for smokeless, but was used with black-powder the first few years of its introduction because of powder shortages.

762Rusky Nagant revolver was used with BP during WWII for the same reason.
Over 1Mil Ruskys were dead/injured at Stalingrad, not one was due to BP in the Nagant Duo.

BP Mosin Food: http://www.surplusrifleforum.com/viewtopic.php?p=764062 and 4 pages over at akfiles: http://www.akfiles.com/forums/showpost.php?p=230180&postcount=14

 

[RPRNY]

War expediency and today's smokeless powder shortage being markedly different experiences, I rather hope you will agree that advising people to use BP in bottleneck cartridges is inadvisable ? Just because the Imperial Army and the Red Army, neither an institution known for its concern about concern about human welfare, did it does not mean we should be doing it.

 

[tyeo098]

War expediency and today's smokeless powder shortage being markedly different experiences, I rather hope you will agree that advising people to use BP in bottleneck cartridges is inadvisable ? Just because the Imperial Army and the Red Army, neither an institution known for its concern about concern about human welfare, did it does not mean we should be doing it.

Could the same be said for reloading in general?

Why make your own rounds when the store has them in stock?

I'm not advising anyone to try anything. Simply stating it has been done before.

 

[Don McDowell]

[QUOTEI rather hope you will agree that advising people to use BP in bottleneck cartridges is inadvisable ?][/QUOTE]

Given the number of bottlenecked cartridges in use during the presmokeless powder era, I am curious as to what is the thought process behind that statement?

 

[RPRNY]

Look at shoulder angles between the few bottleneck cartridges you think were used in BP loadings and modern smokeless cartridges. Instead of just being contrary, think about whether you want to err on the side of caution or obscurish historical accuracy? As per my original post "for the purposes of this discussion, assume no bottleneck cartridges will work well or safely with black powder". Yes, dig out "Cartridges of the World", find x number of obsolete BP bottleneck rounds and show me how clever you are. Then re-read the original post...

 

[Hanshi]

Good God.

Black powder EXPLODES.
Smokeless BURNS.

Those are 2 COMPLETELY different things.

For cartidges originally designed for black powder, I.e 7.62x54R, 45-70, 30-30 etc if you find proper loads it will be fine.
Using pyrodex in 223 or 308 is asking for a broken rifle and a hospital bill.

In BP loadings, air is the enemy. The cases need to be full with BP. This is why old-timey rounds were so large compared to their bullet size, more powder means more oomph.

Recoil repeaters will work to some degree, like this guy here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j84J7VQ02CQ evern hickok45: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KfzQ4uKvE7c

Absolutely NOT! Black powder will not "blow up" any smokeless modern gun. I've reloaded .38spl, .357mag and .45Colt and performance was excellent. Bp won't blow up a Civil War revolver and won't blow up a modern one; this includes rifles. Forget using it in ANY gas operated rifle as it will foul and jam pretty quickly. We're talking about about 30,000 to 60,000 psi compared to bp 6,000 to 16,000 psi. Bp burns and burns at a standard rate-of-burn whether loose or confined while smokeless burns much faster and hotter when confined and at (it's required for combustion) much higher pressures.

 

[Hanshi]

Just so all will know, Bottle-neck rifle rounds were loaded with both cast and jacketed bullets AND as early as the 1880s and the .32Win was bp loaded very early on with bp.