Reloading the 357 Sig...VERY small flash hole

[whatnickname]

I've been reloading for nearly 50 years and have loaded tens of thousands of rifle, pistol and shotgun rounds. I've never reloaded the 357 Sig. Just recently acquired two very nice LEO trade-ins in almost unissued condition. Purchased 2000 rounds of once fired brass and a new set of Hornady New Demision dies. Cleaned and lubed about 150 cases. Then started resizing. About 40 cases later...CRUNCH. Not only trashed the decapping pin but crushed the spindle as well. The cause? Itty bitty flash holes in Speer cases. Went on line and discovered what the "S" stood for on the Speer case. It's apparently an abbreviation for small. Found the same issue with Remington cases. Too coincidental to be a defect. Had to be a reason so I called both Speer and the ammo plant at Remington in Loneoak, AR. Spoke with two engineers and both told me the same thing... had to reduce the size of the flash hole to get better ignition in the Sig. Apparently the bottle necked case introduced this dynamic. Both eigineers warned emphatically NOT to attempt to enlarge the flash hole as it could lead to dangerous case ruptures. Remington acknowledged that a good many people engage in this practice. Said that I might get away with it dozens of times but that sooner or later I would drill out a flash hole at an angle resulting in the redirection of the flame and a blown case. Speer told me that RCBS sells a resizing die for the 357 Sig with an appropriate decapping pin. Hornady is sending me a new spindle with a small diameter decapping pin that they think should work. Hornady was unaware of the small flash hole issue. Just thought I would share what I found out. Stay safe my friends!

 

[ray15]

Interesting. I examine the primer pockets and flash holes of all the 9mm cases I reload with a nifty magnified flashlight I have, and it is common for Winchester brass to have defects in the flash hole that would definitely cause redirection of the primer flame. I toss them because of my OCD; I didn't realize there might be a safety ramification.

 

[whatnickname]

Interesting. I examine the primer pockets and flash holes of all the 9mm cases I reload with a nifty magnified flashlight I have, and it is common for Winchester brass to have defects in the flash hole that would definitely cause redirection of the primer flame. I toss them because of my OCD; I didn't realize there might be a safety ramification.

I'm not sure what the safety ramifications would be with the 9MM. My discussion with the experts was with regard to the 357 Sig only.

 

[ReloaderFred]

This has been an issue with 357 Sig for years. The Speer reps at the SHOT Show told me several years ago that some of their 357 Sig brass was made for them by Starline, and that was the brass with the small flash holes. Half of the Speer brass I have, maybe 4,000 rounds, has normal size flash holes, and the other half has smaller flash holes, with the small "s" on the headstamp. Neither of them said anything about the smaller flash hole being produced for ignition.

I load this caliber with Accurate #9, and I've found no difference whatsoever across the chronograph between the two sizes of flash holes.

Hope this helps.

Fred

 

[ray15]

I'm not sure what the safety ramifications would be with the 9MM. My discussion with the experts was with regard to the 357 Sig only.

I'm not sure, either. That's why I used the term 'might'. The redirection produced by the flaws I'm talking about would be severe compared to the degree produced by somebody drilling the flash hole. I don't know that this is dangerous in 0mm, but until you posted this I didn't know of possible safety ramifications with any cartridge.

 

[whatnickname]

This has been an issue with 357 Sig for years. The Speer reps at the SHOT Show told me several years ago that some of their 357 Sig brass was made for them by Starline, and that was the brass with the small flash holes. Half of the Speer brass I have, maybe 4,000 rounds, has normal size flash holes, and the other half has smaller flash holes, with the small "s" on the headstamp. Neither of them said anything about the smaller flash hole being produced for ignition.

I load this caliber with Accurate #9, and I've found no difference whatsoever across the chronograph between the two sizes of flash holes.

Hope this helps.

Fred

Thanks Fred

 

[ReloaderFred]

I'm not sure, either. That's why I used the term 'might'. The redirection produced by the flaws I'm talking about would be severe compared to the degree produced by somebody drilling the flash hole. I don't know that this is dangerous in 0mm, but until you posted this I didn't know of possible safety ramifications with any cartridge.

In the U.S., flash holes have been punched since they started making metallic cartridges using Boxer primers, which were invented by an English military officer. (Berdan primers were invented by an American, by the way) If this was really an issue, I believe it would have manifested itself sometime during the past 100+ years of use. I've never heard it discussed as a safety issue, only as an accuracy issue when prepping brass.

There are a couple of European companies that drill their flash holes (Norma), but most are punched. When Dan Scharch was making his Top Brass cases, he made a precisely formed flash hole, primarily because he was a machinist by trade and just liked the way they looked.

Like I said, if this was a big issue, we would have heard a lot about it long before now, and there would be all kinds of warnings posted and printed.......... We haven't, so it's not something I'm going to concern myself about.

Hope this helps.

Fred

 

[ray15]

With the Winchester brass it appears that the punch has bounced and struck the case twice, with the case having tilted about 15 degrees between the two strikes. This funnels one side of the flash hole notably, with the net effect being that the hole is aimed many degrees from perpendicular to the breech face, not the tiny amount of tilt one might introduce by enlarging the hole with a drill. There never was any doubt it is a punching operation.

I've seen this with many headstamps, but with the Vista conglomerate stuff or RP it's a very rare occurrence. When I pick up Winchester white box brass at the range many batches have as many as 30% with bad flash holes. It's popular because it's cheap and on the shelf at Wallyworld, but it looks like crap to me.

 

[FN in MT]

I've loaded a mess of .357 sig, all with the same set of Dillon dies. and whatever deprime pin came with those dies. Never had an issue on any sig brass. I also think I'm STILL on the same pin. I know I have loaded some of those Speer cases as I wondered what the "S" was about on the headstamp

I DID have a similar issue on (IIRC) 6.5 x 47 Lapua brass and my REDDING dies. Called them and they sent me smaller decap pins. NO more issues.

 

[ants]

I use a 40S&W decap/sizing die from Lee in the first hole,
a Lee 357 Sig die in the second hole without the decapping pin,
and it runs smooth. Never had a problem in all these years.

Interesting to hear the dialogue, but it hasn't been a problem for me.
It might be a problem for some folk, but we shouldn't expect it for everyone.
I guess we take it as another good heads-up to the wise.

P.S.
This cartridge isn't the first bottleneck handgun, historically there are many others.
Luger, Mauser, Tokarev, Nambu, 22 Rem Jet, 5.7x28.
I load three of those, they don't have a problem with flash hole size. Go figure.

 

[vaalpens]

I have seen my fare share of the small flash holes in 357sig (all Speer). I have just thinned my decapping pin a bit to compensate for the smaller flash hole. I don't know how much difference the smaller holes make, but I will sometimes pick just normal flash hole cases if I work up a load and is planning on doing chrono work. It is actually easy to do this. The cases are upside down in a load tray and then I just stick a normal decapping pin in each of them. The smaller flash hole cases will stick to the decapping ping and will be lifted out of the tray.

I should probably do a comparison test one day between smaller/normal flash hole 357sig cases.

 

[whatnickname]

Well hate to call B.S. on my own thread but here goes. I called Dillon today to see if they had encountered the issue of the small flash holes. They had not and I shared my experience with him including my conversations with Speer and Remington. He called B.S. on it and indicated that they have never experienced any ignition problems with brass that had a standard 60 thousandth flash hole. In his opinion Speer and Remington are messing with us. I don't doubt that they may have needed a smaller flash hole in conjunction with what ever non-canister grade powders and primer they may be using. The Dillion reps opinion was that if Speer and Remington could force the public to buy more factory ammo by making their brass difficult or impossible to reload then so much the better as far as they were concerned. I then called Starline in Missouri. They advised that ALL of their 357 Sig brass uses what we would regard as a standard flash hole with no problems whatsoever. He advised that he too would call B.S. on what Speer and Remington lead me to believe. I feel like I've been suckered at this point by two respected companies and one of them (Speer) was a company that was built on the backs of consumers that reloaded. Of course Speer is no longer the same company and neither is Remington. I'm going to do some more checking with some industry experts, but I find find out that I've been played I'm not going to forget it OR buy the products of either company again. I've got a damn long memory for stuff like this!!!

 

[ReloaderFred]

I've reloaded about 10,000 rounds of 357 Sig ammunition, and have even drilled out the small flash holes. Like I said above, there has been no difference between them, and the ones I drilled shot just like the rest.

Maybe they're stuck on April 1st........

Hope this helps.

Fred

 

[whatnickname]

I've reloaded about 10,000 rounds of 357 Sig ammunition, and have even drilled out the small flash holes. Like I said above, there has been no difference between them, and the ones I drilled shot just like the rest.

Maybe they're stuck on April 1st........

Hope this helps.

Fred

Could be Fred but it's not funny. They've obviously lost sight of an entire segment of their customer base that should be important to them. Anyway, I have a question for you please. Ever load any of the Lehigh monolithic Defense Extreme bullets? If so what did you use for powder? What was your seating depth? What are you using for dies?

 

[ReloaderFred]

That was in jest, but really isn't funny. When I talked to the Speer reps at the SHOT Show several years ago they just told me the brass was made by them with the regular size flash holes and by Starline with the smaller size.

I've never loaded any of the Lehigh Monolithic bullets. I've loaded mostly Berry's and Gold Dots in 357 Sig. Both proved to be very accurate in both of my pistols, so I didn't experiment with anything further. The Accurate #9 powder works very well. I did load up some of the Berry's with a full dose of Power Pistol, but it drove the plated bullets too fast and they stripped the rifling and tumbled badly.

For dies, I've got both Redding and Dillon for 357 Sig. The Dillon dies aren't necessary, and excessively expensive, but I got a good deal on them..

Hope this helps.

Fred

 

[whatnickname]

That was in jest, but really isn't funny. When I talked to the Speer reps at the SHOT Show several years ago they just told me the brass was made by them with the regular size flash holes and by Starline with the smaller size.

I've never loaded any of the Lehigh Monolithic bullets. I've loaded mostly Berry's and Gold Dots in 357 Sig. Both proved to be very accurate in both of my pistols, so I didn't experiment with anything further. The Accurate #9 powder works very well. I did load up some of the Berry's with a full dose of Power Pistol, but it drove the plated bullets too fast and they stripped the rifling and tumbled badly.

For dies, I've got both Redding and Dillon for 357 Sig. The Dillon dies aren't necessary, and excessively expensive, but I got a good deal on them..

Hope this helps.

Fred

Thank you sir. I've ordered a box of Lehigh Defense Extreme in 115 grain. I'm inclined to go with Power Pistol as it will require a smaller powder charge which may prove to be a benefit with the longer monolithic bullets. I will let you know how that works.

 

[JimKirk]

I have reloaded many thousands of 357 SIG .... I did find the small hole size and they did pull the pins and stuck in the hole three times .... I simply removed the pins and replaced back in the stem .... put the stem in a cordless drill and applied 400 grit wet/dry paper until they (pins) fit the small hole .... Several thousand later that same pin is working fine .... I did call RCBS while I figured out the problem ... Couple days later a pack of 5 under size pins came in the mail .... they are still there as the modified pin is clicking right along ....

Never had any issues with full size holes of other brand brass either ... I run some old school 357 SIG loads ... and zero primer problems... just the Glock square marks ...

Never broke a pin or a stem either ....