Required to gt an FFL based on number of guns sold?

[Texas10mm]

Oh come on.
If that's true you really ought to cite the case.

While ATF HAS prosecuted instances of selling one firearm as engaged in the business, it was an instance of the guy buying a gun at a gun show and immediately placing it on his table for resale....ie flipping.

Again, its not the number of firearms its the pattern of behavior.

I wish I could remember it. It bought up in a column in a gun rag a couple decades back. At one time we actually had a discussion about it on this forum if I recall correctly.

The person charged was a big game hunter. Over the course of a couple years he bought and then sold a couple of double rifles. The ATF charged him for it. Dealing without a license.

 

[Frank Ettin]

I wish I could remember it. It bought up in a column in a gun rag a couple decades back. At one time we actually had a discussion about it on this forum if I recall correctly.

The person charged was a big game hunter. Over the course of a couple years he bought and then sold a couple of double rifles. The ATF charged him for it. Dealing without a license.

This sort of stuff is completely useless. Unless you have documentation/a good citation, don't bother.

When discussing legal matters we need solid information, not vague, perhaps faulty, recollections.

 

[dogtown tom]

I really don’t know, but I suspect it’s kinda like an IRS audit. When they do pick their victims, they make it hurt bad enough that it scares everyone else into line.

FWIW....there was a local guy that was a FFL but sold a gun out of his private collection off the books. It was later used to kill a Mishawaka, Indiana cop. Buyer was a felon. He got twenty years in prison

1. A dealer selling a gun out of his private collection isn't committing a crime under Federal law.
2. If the firearm is in the dealers private collection it is by definition "off the books". No 4473 or background check required if in private collection for more than a year.
3. Anyone, not just a licensed dealer, selling, giving, loaning or transferring a firearm to a person they know to be prohibited commits a Federal crime.

Who was the FFL?

 

[old lady new shooter]

My son was advised that a pattern of buying that matches a profile of buying for resale purposes can put your future purchases under increased scrutiny at the state and federal level. All he did was buy two matching guns (same make, model, caliber) one for himself and one as a gift to me as a late birthday present.

If a person never sells anything, how can they be "in the business"?

 

[dogtown tom]

If a person never sells anything, how can they be "in the business"?

When a buyer purchases two or more handguns from the same dealer in any five business day period, the dealer is required to complete a Multiple Sale of Handgun form and fax a copy to ATF National Tracing Center and mail a copy to his local PD.

Multiples of the same firearm purchased in a short time frame is very unusual, indicative of someone who is buying them to resell. Especially cheap handguns.

In my experience over the last eleven years, ATF has only contacted three of my customers:
1. purchased ten pistols online while out of the country for several months. He picked up all ten the same day. ATF was at his home three days later, asking if he purchased for resale. He then showed them his collection. They apologized for bothering him, made note that he was a collector and never bothered him again. Over the last few years he's made several more multiples purchases with no issues.
2. Customer purchased eight or non NAA mini revolvers as Christmas gifts for his employees. ATF said no big deal.
3. Customer purchased four Hungarian AMD65 AK's. ATF left a business card in his door jamb asking him to call them. They quizzed him over the phone and he got snotty to say the least (his words). Met them at an ATF office in Dallas where they had copies of all his previous multiple sale reports and that an AR he had sold was recovered at a crime scene in Mexico. It was traced to the original buyer in Dallas who told ATF who he sold it to. My customer told ATF he had sold it to a Texas resident at the Market Hall Gun Show in Dallas a year earlier.. They served him a Cease & Desist letter instructing him that all future sales of his firearms must be through a licensed dealer. The reasoning was he had begun showing a pattern of buying and selling.

Two months after that, he was arrested for stealing a Bond Arms derringer at the Big Town Show in Mesquite. He was a CPA, Realtor, Reserve Police Officer and years before held FFL and SOT. While under indictment for theft of a firearm, he was ordered to dispose of ALL his firearms.

Committed suicide a couple of years later.

All that drama because he didn't want the hassle of having an FFL.

 

[CLP]

Absolutely nothing wrong with making a profit.

Buying with the sole intent of selling, repeatedly, is just one of the hallmarks of running a business.

There is no set number of transactions tjat trigger the need for an FFL.

I am not an expert if any kind, but, up till may of 2019 I had a small firearms business.

"Buying with the sole intent of selling, repeatedly, is just one of the hallmarks of running a business." It's also a hallmark of engaging in a hobby. What's the difference between making a profit and selling something for more than you paid for it? That wording always bothered me- per ATF, "The term “engaged in the business” as applied to a dealer in firearms means a person who devotes time, attention, and labor to dealing in firearms as a regular course of trade or business with the principal objective of livelihood and profit through the repetitive purchase and resale of firearms."
Hobbyists also devote time, attention, and labor to dealing in firearms. If they're good at it, they can profit from doing so.
A problem comes down to your major source of your income.
As a physician, if I made 20K selling some firearms, it is not the same as someone making minimum wage selling 20K in firearms. So...it's vague.

 

[old lady new shooter]

When a buyer purchases two or more handguns from the same dealer in any five business day period, the dealer is required to complete a Multiple Sale of Handgun form and fax a copy to ATF National Tracing Center and mail a copy to his local PD.

That is very good information, thank you for posting.

 

[dogtown tom]

As a physician, if I made 20K selling some firearms, it is not the same as someone making minimum wage selling 20K in firearms. So...it's vague.

It's not vague at all because the percentage of your income derived from gun sales is irrelevant. Again, its the behavior exhibited.
Here's a good read for everyone who wants to know if they need an FFL:

DO I NEED A LICENSE TO BUY AND SELL FIREARMS? https://www.atf.gov/file/100871/download
Of note in that guide:
-Courts have identified several factors relevant to determining on which side of that line your activities may fall, including: whether you represent yourself as a dealer in firearms; whether you are repetitively buying and selling firearms; the circumstances under which you are selling firearms; and whether you are looking to make a profit. Note that while quantity and frequency of sales are relevant indicators, courts have upheld convictions for dealing without a license when as few as two firearms were sold, or when only one or two transactions took place, when other factors were also present.

-What activities require a dealer’s license? Federal law does not establish a “bright-line” rule for when a federal firearms license is required. As a result, there is no specific threshold number or frequency of sales, quantity of firearms, or amount of profit or time invested that triggers the licensure requirement. Instead, determining whether you are “engaged in the business” of dealing in firearms requires looking at the specific facts and circumstances of your activities. As a general rule, you will need a license if you repetitively buy and sell firearms with the principal motive of making a profit. In contrast, if you only make occasional sales of firearms from your personal collection, you do not need to be licensed. In either case, all of your firearms transactions are relevant, regardless of their location; it does not matter if sales are conducted out of your home, at gun shows, flea markets, through the internet, or by other means.

-Are you repetitively buying and selling firearms? As noted above, there is no specific threshold number of firearms purchased or sold that triggers the licensure requirement. Similarly, there is no “magic number” related to the frequency of transactions that indicates whether a person is “engaged in the business” of dealing in firearms. It is important to note, however, that even a few firearms transactions, when combined with other evidence, can be sufficient to establish that a person is “engaged in the business” of dealing in firearms. For example, courts have upheld convictions for dealing without a license when as few as two firearms were sold, or when only one or two transactions took place. That said, courts have looked at both the quantity of firearms sold, as well as the frequency of sales, as relevant indicators. When combined with other factors, selling large numbers of firearms or engaging in frequent transactions may be highly indicative of business activity.

-In addition to the volume and frequency of firearms transactions, the timing and circumstances surrounding firearm transactions are also significant indicators of whether a person is engaged in the business. Repetitively selling or offering to sell firearms shortly after they are acquired; “restocking” inventory; repetitively acquiring the same type of firearm or a large quantity of the same type of firearm, and then reselling or offering to sell those firearms; and/or repetitively acquiring and reselling or offering to sell firearms in unopened or original packaging (or in new condition), are all factors which individually or combined may indicate a person is engaged in the business.

Remember, you might beat the rap, but you never beat the ride and that ride may be very expensive.
While ATF will likely have a tough time convincing the local US Attorney to pursue charges, go to trial, etc. they can sure cause you to spend $$$ on an attorney.

 

[SRSTAdam21]

This is definitely a gray area. I was at a show a few months back. I was at a mans table (he had six tables) of guns. I asked if he was a private seller or FFL. He said private. Sweet. While there someone next to me had a gun and the guy running the table made an offer. Seller came back with a different number. Man at table: “Hm, at that price it doesn’t leave much meat on the bones for me to resell now does it. I have all these show costs”.

I walked away. I thought that man a fool. Any one of us could have been “unfriendly”

 

[billybob44]

A couple of decades ago there was a big game hunter that sold two African class rifles in two years. The ATF arrested and charged him for dealing without a license.

The law is purposely vague.

Do you know this "big game hunter" personally? or is this something that you "Heard"??
Some of the stories are repeated enough to make them true??..Bill.

 

[Texas10mm]

Do you know this "big game hunter" personally? or is this something that you "Heard"??
Some of the stories are repeated enough to make them true??..Bill.

It was in a column in one of the gun mags at the time. The column was talking about excesses of the ATF.

 

[billybob44]

It was in a column in one of the gun mags at the time. The column was talking about excesses of the ATF.

Thanks=Goes to show that anything can happen=BATF has also been known to sell a few guns down South of the Border??...

 

[Frank Ettin]

It was in a column in one of the gun mags at the time. The column was talking about excesses of the ATF.

Now that was not at all helpful -- just more unverifiable junk.

Thanks=Goes to show that anything can happen=BATF has also been known to sell a few guns down South of the Border??...

It shows no such thing. In fact, it shows absolutely nothing. This is how urban myths get spread and what keeps guys like the ones who run Snopes in business.

• Exactly when and in what magazine was the article published?
  
  
• Who wrote it?
  
  
• Exactly what did the article say? Exactly what happened according to the article?
  
  
• How did the author get his information?

Undocumented stories like that are two for a penny and not worth even that.

 

[herrwalther]

Easily found three stories of dealing without a license. One says 3 firearms sold by an illegal "dealer" were found at crime scenes. Another had sales of over 200, another 250. Quite the spread. Further proving the ATF does not have a set number that they declare is "in the business."

https://www.justice.gov/opa/pr/minnesota-man-indicted-dealing-firearms-without-license
https://www.atf.gov/news/pr/janesville-man-charged-dealing-firearms-without-license
https://www.guns.com/news/2018/08/23/nevada-man-indicted-for-dealing-firearms-without-a-license

 

[Frank Ettin]

Easily found three stories of dealing without a license. One says 3 firearms sold by an illegal "dealer" were found at crime scenes. Another had sales of over 200, another 250. Quite the spread. Further proving the ATF does not have a set number that they declare is "in the business."

https://www.justice.gov/opa/pr/minnesota-man-indicted-dealing-firearms-without-license
https://www.atf.gov/news/pr/janesville-man-charged-dealing-firearms-without-license
https://www.guns.com/news/2018/08/23/nevada-man-indicted-for-dealing-firearms-without-a-license

That is useful information. If nothing else it's additional evidence that ATF does indeed prosecute these sorts of cases.

Stick with documented, verifiable information. Don't waste everyone's time with undocumented, unverifiable stories.

 

[waterhouse]

They served him a Cease & Desist letter instructing him that all future sales of his firearms must be through a licensed dealer. The reasoning was he had begun showing a pattern of buying and selling.

Your experience mirrors mine. I had a guy deployed to Iraq for over a year, bought a gun about once a month and picked them all up when he got home. ATF visited him and quickly left him alone when he explained what was going on. A dad bought 4 matching pistols, one for him and one each for his 3 kids as presents. ATF also visited and then quickly left him alone. Had another guy buy a bunch of stripped lowers and he ended up building them for resale. Some ended up in Mexico, so the ATF gave him a Cease and Desist letter. I never saw him after that.

 

[rule303]

The ATF had not been consistent at all in their interpretation of the law on this issue. A few years back there was a guy who bought a single blue label Glock to sell to a family member at a profit who was tried and convicted of dealing without a license.
Nobody could possibly answer this question. Ask 3 different ATF agents and you are likely to get 4 different answers. There is no magic number of guns, or time of ownership before selling. You are at the discretion of the individual ATF agent/procecutor/judge/jury if you happen to get involved in a transaction that ruffles the wrong feathers.

 

[dogtown tom]

The ATF had not been consistent at all in their interpretation of the law on this issue. A few years back there was a guy who bought a single blue label Glock to sell to a family member at a profit who was tried and convicted of dealing without a license.

Uh, no.
US vs Abramski (;ater Abramski vs US) had nothing to do with dealing without a license.
Bruce Abramski lied on the Form 4473 and was convicted for that.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abramski_v._United_States

Nobody could possibly answer this question. Ask 3 different ATF agents and you are likely to get 4 different answers. There is no magic number of guns, or time of ownership before selling. You are at the discretion of the individual ATF agent/procecutor/judge/jury if you happen to get involved in a transaction that ruffles the wrong feathers.

Yeah, thats why I posted the ATF publication above.

 

[Spats McGee]

....A few years back there was a guy who bought a single blue label Glock to sell to a family member at a profit who was tried and convicted of dealing without a license.....

If you're talking about the case of Bruce Abramski of U.S. v. Abramski fame, that's not quite correct. He was convicted of making a straw purchase of a Blue Label Glock, not of dealing without a license. If you're not talking about Abramski, then I guess I'm out in left field on this one.

 

[Frank Ettin]

The ATF had not been consistent at all in their interpretation of the law on this issue. A few years back there was a guy who bought a single blue label Glock to sell to a family member at a profit who was tried and convicted of dealing without a license....

Remember that I cautioned (post 40) not to bother with unverifiable, undocumented stories. It's important to have the facts straight, and it doesn't look like you do.

That sounds very much like the Abramski case, and if so, that's not what happened. Abramski had nothing to do with dealing without a license. It was a straw purchase case.

Bruce Abramski and his uncle, Angel Alvarez, arranged between themselves that Alvarez would give money to Abramski, Abramski would use the money to buy a Glock 19 at Glock's law enforcement discount, and then Abramski would transfer the Glock to Alvarez. On those facts, Abramski was not the actual purchaser/transferee of the gun and therefore lied when he claimed to be on the 4473. He was not the actual purchaser/transferee because he was buying the gun on behalf of Alvarez.

Abramski was charged with making what ATF classified as a straw purchase: lying on the 4473, in violation of 18 USC 922(a)(6), about who the actual purchaser was. Abramski was convicted. The case went up to the Supreme Court, which agreed with the ATF and affirmed Abramski's conviction.

For in depth discussion of Abramski and straw purchases see:

• Is this a straw purchase?
  
  
• What is a "Straw Purchase?" (see post 23)
  
  
• Abramski v U.S. Supreme Court Decision (Straw Purchase case)
  
  
• Straw purchase clarification question
  
  
• Difference between straw purchase and buying a gift?

....There is no magic number of guns, or time of ownership before selling. You are at the discretion of the individual ATF agent/procecutor/judge/jury if you happen to get involved in a transaction that ruffles the wrong feathers.

It's not as arbitrary as that. There are standards, but they involve some amount of judgment and interpretation of facts. See pose 24 for what some courts have said.