Residual polishing media inside the case - OK or not?

[IMtheNRA]

I tumbled my first batch of brass with Lyman nutshell media which has the red polishing compound already in it. I can see some of the very fine red powder inside the cases. I'm sure that much of it will come loose as I handle the cases to resize/decap them, but some of the material will probably remain inside the case as I charge it and seat the bullet.

I'm sure that I do not need to worry about this little bit of contamination interfering with either accuracy or reliablility of my reloads, but I wanted to check here.

What do you think? OK or not?

 

[FieroCDSP]

The red dust is harmless enough, and even a fleck or two of the walnut. It took me forever to get the media to the point where it'll clean but not leave dust everywhere. A used dryer sheet in each batch can help remove that, though it does kinda go against the purpose of the dust being there.
After a while, I tossed in a cap-full of NuFinish and that cut the dust waay down, but there wasn't much more in there. Regardless, the dryer sheet each batch and a cap-full of NuFinish every five to seven cycles (add to and run tumbler 5-10 minutes before adding brass) will help the brass come out shiny, slide through the carbide dies, and keep the media clean.

 

[SilentArmy]

The Red polish in the Lyman media is a Jewelers rouge and is VERY abrasive! It WILL ruin your dies (even carbide) and wear them out quickly. If you choose to use the Tufnut product, you must then tumble in a untreated walnut or corn cob media to remove the red stuff. A PITA I know. I tumble literally tens of thousands of pounds of brass and I use a fine untreated corncob mixed with a fine untreated walnut shell 80/20 mix. I add a polishing compound to this mix and there is NO dust and the brightest brass you have ever seen (better than new) in 1-1/2 hrs or less! Generally, walnut shell is for cleaning very dirty or corroded cases. not the best for a bright smooth finish.

 

[snuffy]

I disagree---strongly! The abrasive jewelers rouge that's on the walnut he was using is a very mild abrasive. It's only capable of cutting/polishing BRASS!. It won't do a thing to steel, it's too soft. Same goes for the abrasive that's in the Berry's brass bright. Or FA tumbler additive from midway.

People see the word ABRASIVE, they think it's all made of diamond dust. There's many different grades of abrasive, they're not all the same hardness or particle size,(grade). Do you think that a manufacturer of brass tumbling media would put an abrasive on their product that's capable of harming dies, or for that matter gun barrels? Some of that rouge stayed on the inside of the cases. Where it COULD follow a bullet down the barrel. The next bullet could/would run it down the bore dulling the rifling.

 

[IMtheNRA]

Jeweler's Rouge is.... Rust!

I'll call Hornady tomorrow to see what they have to say about repeated interaction of Iron Oxide and their "Titanium Nitride" dies.

By the way, do you guys tumble before or after sizing/decapping? I noticed black streaks on all my clean, shiny cases after I ran them through the sizing die...

Here's what Wikipedia has to say about Iron Oxide:

***
A very fine powder of ferric oxide is known as jeweller's rouge, red rouge, or simply rouge. It is used to put the final polish on metallic jewellery and lenses, and historically as a cosmetic.

Rouge cuts slower than some modern polishes, such as cerium(IV) oxide, but is still used in optics fabrication and by jewelers for the superior finish it can produce. When polishing gold, the rouge slightly stains the gold, which contributes to the appearance of the finished piece. Rouge is sold as a powder, paste, laced on polishing cloths, or solid bar (with a wax or grease binder). Other polishing compounds are also often called "rouge", even when they do not contain iron oxide. Jewelers remove the residual rouge on jewelry by use of ultrasonic cleaning.
***

 

[snuffy]

Jeweler's Rouge Buffing Compounds

Red Jeweler's Rouge Jeweler's Rouge got its name from the jewelry industry, when jewelers would use a fine grit polishing compound to work with precious metals like silver and gold. These metals and the work pieces being of the highest quality required a polishing compound that would deliver the highest quality finish of both surface finish as well as the natural color of the metal. Today, Jeweler's rouge refers to a specific type of polishing compound that is also designed to bring a mirror like finish to higher end metals.

Schaffner manufactures a variety of jeweler's rouge to meet your specific requirements.

Red Bright Jeweler's Rouge

The abrasive medium is a superfine, soft red rouge combined with just enough hard grease binders to keep the compound on the buffing wheel. Used to bring out a high color on Gold, Silver,
Sterling , Platinum and Brass.

 

[SilentArmy]

I polish before decapping as well as tumble the Completed rounds briefly after loading to remove this streaking that even the TiNi dies will produce.

 

[FieroCDSP]

Give your dies a thorough cleaning every now and then, especially with that dust building up. The only die I currently have that is leaving streaks is my Lee 9mm. My 40 and Makarov dies don't leave streaks. It's cosmetic to me. While my cartidges might not look perfect, they certainly shoot straight.

 

[IMtheNRA]

Just what is that streaking? Left over dirt and grease in the die or brass reacting to the heat generated in the sizing die?

 

[86thecat]

My concern is grit or abrasives from tumbling getting into the barrel, so I make sure cases are clean inside.

 

[qajaq59]

I don't use the rouge so I can't comment on that. However, to get rid of the dust in the walnut media just take it outside on a windy day and slowly pour it from on container to another. The wind will carry away most of the really fine dust.

 

[snuffy]

http://www.widgetsupply.com/page/WS/CTGY/jeweler-rouge

Again, red rouge is meant for polishing only soft metals like gold, silver, platinum and brass. It won't affect steel!

 

[GaryL]

Are you willing to take the chance?
All abrasives will wear harder materials over time. I've seen metal worn by plastic. And I wouldn't make the assumption that the rouge is of semiconductor levels of purity. Iron oxide may not be particularly hard, but metal oxides are (by nature) very abrasive.

Some of the best advice on this board that I ever got was to use NuFinish in the tumbler. I do 2 tumbling operations on my brass and will use polishing compound in the first batch but NuFinsih in the second for a final clean and polish. Works great. Keeps the brass from getting sticky, and grit out of the dies.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abrasives

Mechanics of abrasion
Abrasives generally rely upon a difference in hardness between the abrasive and the material being worked upon, the abrasive being the harder of the two substances. However, this is not necessary as any two solid materials that repeatedly rub against each other will tend to wear each other away (such as softer shoe soles wearing away wooden or stone steps over decades or centuries or glaciers abrading stone valleys).

Typically, materials used as abrasives are either hard minerals (rated at 7 or above on Mohs scale of mineral hardness) or are synthetic stones, some of which may be chemically and physically identical to naturally occurring minerals but which cannot be called minerals as they did not arise naturally. (While useful for comparative purposes, the Mohs scale is of limited value to materials engineers as it is an arbitrary, ordinal, irregular scale.) Diamond, a common abrasive, for instance occurs both naturally and is industrially produced , as is corundum which occurs naturally but which is nowadays more commonly manufactured from bauxite.[1] However, even softer minerals like calcium carbonate are used as abrasives, such as "polishing agents" in toothpaste.


Grit size ranging from 2 mm (the large grain) (about F 10 using FEPA standards) to about 40 micrometres (about F 240 or P 360).These minerals are either crushed or are already of a sufficiently small size (anywhere from macroscopic grains as large as about 2 mm to microscopic grains about 0.001 mm in diameter) to permit their use as an abrasive. These grains, commonly called grit, have rough edges, often terminating in points which will decrease the surface area in contact and increase the localised contact pressure. The abrasive and the material to be worked are brought into contact while in relative motion to each other. Force applied through the grains causes fragments of the worked material to break away while simultaneously smoothing the abrasive grain and/or causing the grain to work loose from the rest of the abrasive.

Some factors which will affect how quickly a substance is abraded include:

Difference in hardness between the two substances: a much harder abrasive will cut faster and deeper
Grain size (grit size): larger grains will cut faster as they also cut deeper
Adhesion between grains, between grains and backing, between grains and matrix: determines how quickly grains are lost from the abrasive and how soon fresh grains, if present, are exposed
Contact force: more force will cause faster abrasion
Loading: worn abrasive and cast off work material tends to fill spaces between abrasive grains so reducing cutting efficiency while increasing friction
Use of lubricant/coolant/metalworking fluid: Can carry away swarf (preventing loading), transport heat (which may affect the physical properties of the workpiece or the abrasive), decrease friction (with the substrate or matrix), suspend worn work material and abrasives allowing for a finer finish, conduct stress to the workpiece.

 

[snuffy]

Are you willing to take the chance?

Yes. I call it trust. I trust the manufacturer of the rouge impregnated BRASS tumbler medium-to be using, as a polishing agent, something that's NOT hard enough to affect either my dies of my gun barrel. That's what the OP was asking about, the Lyman tuff-nut rouge impregnated BRASS tumbler media.

If, however, you use some other type of polish, NOT meant to be used for polishing brass, you're on your own. It coild be hard enough to wear steel dies or gun barrels.

A while back someone here asked what we thought of using sand as a tumbler media, for polishing brass. No I'm not kidding! Most said, as I did, bad idea. You can't be absolutely certain you got every last grain of sand out of every shell!

 

[ArthurE]

When I first started tumbling I tried several commercial mixes of media. The dust in the mix and on the cases was to me unacceptable.
After several years of experimenting I finally settled on this procedure:
After decapping I soak the brass in Iosso Liquid Case Cleaner for 5 to 10 minutes (I bought the kit but it's most economical to buy by the gallon).
Rinse the cases thoroughly in warm water and I let the brass air dry overnight. You can speed up the process with a heat gun (away from powder and primers) or low heat in an oven (225 degrees), but I'm not in that big of a hurry (this is after all, a hobby).
When dry the cases are clean enough to reload.
I take it one step farther and tumble in a mix of corn cob and Iosso Case Polish as per directions on the can.
When done, there is very little dust, the cases glide through my dies and my reloads gleam like factory rounds.

 

[ArthurE]

When I first started tumbling I tried several commercial mixes of media. The dust in the mix and on the cases was to me unacceptable.
After several years of experimenting I finally settled on this procedure:
After decapping I soak the brass in Iosso Liquid Case Cleaner for 5 to 10 minutes (I bought the kit but it's most economical to buy by the gallon).
Rinse the cases thoroughly in warm water and I let the brass air dry overnight. You can speed up the process with a heat gun (away from powder and primers) or low heat in an oven (225 degrees), but I'm not in that big of a hurry (this is after all, a hobby).
When dry the cases are clean enough to reload.
I take it one step farther and tumble in a mix of corn cob and Iosso Case Polish as per directions on the can.
When done, there is very little dust, the cases glide through my dies and my reloads gleam like factory rounds.
I also very seldom have to clean primer pockets.

 

[ArthurE]

Sorry about the duplicate message I'll learn how to use this thing yet.

 

[asknight]

Are you willing to take the chance?
All abrasives will wear harder materials over time. I've seen metal worn by plastic. And I wouldn't make the assumption that the rouge is of semiconductor levels of purity. Iron oxide may not be particularly hard, but metal oxides are (by nature) very abrasive.

You can bet your bottom dollar that jeweller's rouge isn't anywhere near as abrasive as carbon fouling and SAND that you would be running in your dies if you didn't tumble at all (or already in your gun barrel)! If anything, the rouge will polish the die, not gouge or scratch it like silica (sand) or carbon will.

Of course, the only way you can keep your die from wearing out is to put it in the box and not use it.

I've seen metal worn by plastic

Yea, about that... plastic has the tendency to allow any type of abrasive to embed in it resulting in the part itself becoming an abrasive to anything it touches. So, when are you going to switch all of your tumbler's bowls to glass to keep the bowl from being embedded with any sand or carbon and abrading your brass?

 

[GaryL]

You can bet your bottom dollar that jeweller's rouge isn't anywhere near as abrasive as carbon fouling and SAND that you would be running in your dies if you didn't tumble at all (or already in your gun barrel)! If anything, the rouge will polish the die, not gouge or scratch it like silica (sand) or carbon will.

Very true

Of course, the only way you can keep your die from wearing out is to put it in the box and not use it.

Then it would probably rust and I'd lose the die and have gotten nothing in return.

Yea, about that... plastic has the tendency to allow any type of abrasive to embed in it resulting in the part itself becoming an abrasive to anything it touches.

Not all plastics have abrasives imbedded. In fact, some plastics are required to be very high purity. For that matter water is abrasive and will wear very hard materials over time (or quickly as in the case of the sapphire tips used in water jet cutting tools).

So, when are you going to switch all of your tumbler's bowls to glass to keep the bowl from being embedded with any sand or carbon and abrading your brass?

No need to be sarcastic.

I won't claim to be an "abrasives expert", but I have experience in many industrial settings and have seen first hand the effects of "mild abrasives" on machine tools and equipment of all types. Everything wears out with use, but there are many ways to accelerate the wear.