Revolver or Semi-Auto for EDC?

[Thibaut]

^^^^^labnoti
I understand what you are saying and propose. For a variety of reasons, it is doubtful that I will ever acquire the depth of training skills that you espouse. In a perfect world; I certainly would. At this point, my goal is to be as comfortable and skilled with my gun as I can make myself. So much of what you say is absolutely integral to a "situation," in which, unfortunately, we might find ourselves.

I think a lot about my reaction if presented with danger beyond my natural control. I would hate to think that absolute fear would make me shoot first. Something like that. Your post is a good one. Well written and pertinent to me in a lot of ways.

 

[Thibaut]

As to the conversational theme itself, I have decided that a semi auto for me just has too much going-on and I would feel somewhat more comfortable with a revolver. That might change for me but at this point; not.

 

[FL-NC]

Your point and everything we collectively know about handgun "stopping power" makes it clear it's ill-advised to depend on one round to end a lethal threat. Because lethal force incidents start before they become lethal, I take into consideration something else I heard. The way I heard it was the more or better training you have, the farther you can let a situation deteriorate before you have to shoot. I believe that statement was made from a LEO perspective where disengagement is often not an option. The way I understand it: a person who is poorly trained, poorly equipped, and who perceives themselves at greater disadvantage and greater inability is more likely to shoot sooner, and shoot more often. Under extreme duress, they're going to reach their personal last resort quickly. That could mean shoot, or shoot again. "When all you have is a hammer, every problem looks like a nail." Contrast this with someone who has more extensive training, who is comfortable working with multiple skills, who has many more options. They have verbal de-escalation skills, are practiced in command and control presence, moving and shooting are familiar to them rather than something they've never done before. They're adept at a variety of distances and in different lighting conditions. Shooting in buildings and around vehicles is something they've practiced. They have the skills and equipment that give them confidence -- not confidence to get into or stay longer in high-risk situations -- but to get out of them quickly without losing control and immediately going to the last resort.

For the person who lacks training and skill, the last round in their pistol is the last resort. It needs to come as late as possible for them, and they're likely to prefer equipment that will put that out farther. They're aware that they'll shoot sooner and longer. That's not to say the person with skill will always choose a lower capacity gun, but that they're focused on problems that are more challenging than how soon their first reload will come.

You are only as good as your training. Assume every time you train, that the next time you have a gun in your hand, it may be for real, so train accordingly. This is real life right now- this is not a rehearsal.

 

[FL-NC]

As to the conversational theme itself, I have decided that a semi auto for me just has too much going-on and I would feel somewhat more comfortable with a revolver. That might change for me but at this point; not.

Then get as skilled as you can with that wheelgun. Perfect practice makes perfect.

 

[Thibaut]

Then get as skilled as you can with that wheelgun. Perfect practice makes perfect.

I am really trying.

 

[FL-NC]

I am really trying.

Like yoda said- "Do or do not.There is no try."

 

[Good Ol' Boy]

I currently only own one revolver and it's a SA .22 so revolvers are kind of out for me. Even if I did own some more powerful nicer revolvers I would not consider them for EDC unless that's all I had.

I always advise as much firepower as one is willing to carry. That means not necessarily a .454 revolver but a semi with an adequate cartridge that you can actually shoot. The more rounds the better.


There are countless accounts of LEs from back in the day getting into gunfights with revolvers and I dont recall even one who didnt end up switching to a semi after the fact.

 

[Thibaut]

I don't want to get into a gunfight (I seem to be saying that a lot around here). I am learning to shoot because I've been messed-with before and I want to try and level the playing field if it happens to me again. This journey I've begun has become surprisingly fun and interesting and the map will be a big one. Right now, I am learning to shoot a revolver. It fits my lifestyle and my pants, at present.

 

[GEM]

If you are a beginner and can afford it, take a revolver class and take a semi class from a competent instructor.
Shoot a competition like IDPA with each (once you can handle the basics).
Much better way to decide than Internet chatter.

A modern semi is a better belt carry gun. However, as a flip phone works still, so will a revolver.

 

[Thibaut]

If you are a beginner and can afford it, take a revolver class and take a semi class from a competent instructor.
Shoot a competition like IDPA with each (once you can handle the basics).
Much better way to decide than Internet chatter.

A modern semi is a better belt carry gun. However, as a flip phone works still, so will a revolver.

You presented much the same advice a while back. I was listening, took heed and thank you.

 

[GEM]

Since the conversation continued, I thought I would repeat it.

 

[Styx]

I don't want to get into a gunfight (I seem to be saying that a lot around here). I am learning to shoot because I've been messed-with before and I want to try and level the playing field if it happens to me again. This journey I've begun has become surprisingly fun and interesting and the map will be a big one. Right now, I am learning to shoot a revolver. It fits my lifestyle and my pants, at present.

You'll do fine with a revolver. Many people a lot more experienced than you choose to carry a revolver over a semoauto. I personally own plenty of handguns only three of which or revolvers. I generally EDC a 6+1 single stack or a 5 shot jframe.

 

[Kleanbore]

You'll do fine with a revolver.

Maybe.

A good way to get an indication of that is to follow GEM's advice in Post #84 and see how you do.

 

[Styx]

Maybe.

A good way to get an indication of that is to follow GEM's advice in Post #84 and see how you do.

True but I have faith that if he puts in the effort with either, he will be just fine.

 

[GEM]

If you practice, you become a competent shooter with either. There is no reason that one becomes competent with one and not the either. I cannot think of a physical reason for this and know plenty of folks competent with both (including me). That being accomplished - the discussion turns to what is the best carry gun for a person based on its attributes in a fight. So we get:

1. The assumption of the low round fight based on assuming the average happens and not worrying about being an extreme case. Those do happen.
2. Reliability - the odds that with quality handguns of each type, there may be a smaller advantage to the revolver (but when they go bad, their jams are worse).
3. One handed manipulation - semis are easier.
4. Reloads - sorry folks who think they are Jerry - semis are orders of magnitude faster.
5. Size - belt gun - why carry the same size with lesser capacity?
6. You are scared of the semi lighter trigger. Well, train, get a DAO or TDA semi. Avoid the strikers or 1911s as you don't think you can come up to speed and handle them safely
7. Oops, no safeties on revolvers (exotic exceptions and modifications noted - never seen one). Of course, you get the strikers with no little switch type of safety on the side of the gun. Yes, Glock has safeties but not that, unless you get a special model.
8. With comparable power rounds, less felt recoil in semis.
9. Pocket guns - that's when the J size revolvers shine. However, they are not for novices and ammo that works for you must be tested. You need to train with them (unless you think you are the person, that will just have the 3 yard fight that you can point shoot successfully - which does happen).

So is the crux of the matter, fear of the semi - some kind of curmudgeon wanting to be a contrarian old fart? I love shooting a revolver but practically, belt gun is a semi.
Is the gun the best tool or does it act as some kind of totem?

 

[Jeb Stuart]

If you practice, you become a competent shooter with either. There is no reason that one becomes competent with one and not the either. I cannot think of a physical reason for this and know plenty of folks competent with both (including me). That being accomplished - the discussion turns to what is the best carry gun for a person based on its attributes in a fight. So we get:

1. The assumption of the low round fight based on assuming the average happens and not worrying about being an extreme case. Those do happen.
2. Reliability - the odds that with quality handguns of each type, there may be a smaller advantage to the revolver (but when they go bad, their jams are worse).
3. One handed manipulation - semis are easier.
4. Reloads - sorry folks who think they are Jerry - semis are orders of magnitude faster.
5. Size - belt gun - why carry the same size with lesser capacity?
6. You are scared of the semi lighter trigger. Well, train, get a DAO or TDA semi. Avoid the strikers or 1911s as you don't think you can come up to speed and handle them safely
7. Oops, no safeties on revolvers (exotic exceptions and modifications noted - never seen one). Of course, you get the strikers with no little switch type of safety on the side of the gun. Yes, Glock has safeties but not that, unless you get a special model.
8. With comparable power rounds, less felt recoil in semis.
9. Pocket guns - that's when the J size revolvers shine. However, they are not for novices and ammo that works for you must be tested. You need to train with them (unless you think you are the person, that will just have the 3 yard fight that you can point shoot successfully - which does happen).

So is the crux of the matter, fear of the semi - some kind of curmudgeon wanting to be a contrarian old fart? I love shooting a revolver but practically, belt gun is a semi.
Is the gun the best tool or does it act as some kind of totem?

Gem, I agree with your post but will take a few exceptions. First I think the word "Fear" is not the best description. Maybe more cautious is a better word. And I do think them a better trigger when adrealine is pumping and nerves in the hands will involuntary contract. I have a few light striker fired guns and love them. But I actually enjoy the DAO better, not a fear. I really like the smooth, controlled and deliberate shooting of the guns. I have a Nano and a Kahr, which are a Striker fired DAO and for me, find them my favorite. Not saying they are right for all.
Pocket guns to include J size and small gun like the Kahr, Pico, LCP etc can all be carried very well in concealment with the semi-auto's being easier to conceal. And your are right on with the training. They do have a longer training curve, but that is over come with "Training". In fact, a person can become very efficient with them with Proper training.

And with any gun no matter what trigger or size, consistent training is the key. I take my hand gun training philosophy from my old Cross Country Coach. "Being good is a slow train Coming". It takes Moderate, Consistent, Frequent Training" to achieve the best results."

 

[Styx]

I routinely carry single stacks and jframes concealed owb in pancake holster, and I do not find it any harder to conceal jframe on the belt vs a single stack 9mm sized guns. In my experience, jframes conceal better at 3ish on the belt do to the fact that it doesn't have the typical handgun profile, and the butt are of the grip isn't typically as wide and squared. The thickness of the cylinder has never been an issue for me or made the gun less concealable despite conventional wisdom. YMMV...

Another plus for Jframes are they're usually lighter than single stacks as well...

 

[Styx]

This is the jframe next to a 6+1 G43 and Sig P365, and you can see the difference. Also, these two guns are on the smaller spectrum of single stack 9mm. The Shield, PPS M2, Ruger LC9s, etc are bigger guns and will have a longer grip... I usually carry my jframes with the more rounded combat grip...

 

[labnoti]

...
1. The assumption of the low round fight based on assuming the average happens and not worrying about being an extreme case. Those do happen.
2. Reliability - the odds that with quality handguns of each type, there may be a smaller advantage to the revolver (but when they go bad, their jams are worse).
3. One handed manipulation - semis are easier.
4. Reloads - sorry folks who think they are Jerry - semis are orders of magnitude faster.
5. Size - belt gun - why carry the same size with lesser capacity?
6. You are scared of the semi lighter trigger. Well, train, get a DAO or TDA semi. Avoid the strikers or 1911s as you don't think you can come up to speed and handle them safely
7. Oops, no safeties on revolvers (exotic exceptions and modifications noted - never seen one). Of course, you get the strikers with no little switch type of safety on the side of the gun. Yes, Glock has safeties but not that, unless you get a special model.
8. With comparable power rounds, less felt recoil in semis.
9. Pocket guns - that's when the J size revolvers shine. However, they are not for novices and ammo that works for you must be tested. You need to train with them (unless you think you are the person, that will just have the 3 yard fight that you can point shoot successfully - which does happen).

1. No assumption of a low-round fight is needed with a revolver. You can carry as much ammo as you want.
2. Agree on both aspects.
3. When we introduce disabilities to manipulation, it can depend on the person and their disabilities or injuries. One-handed manipulation of a revolver involves more fine motor dexterity with the fingers. One-handed manipulation of the semi-automatic usually requires greater physical strength.
4. With moon clips or speedloaders, you do not have to be Jerry to be as fast as most people are with magazines. Revolver reloads can be very, very fast with only a modest amount of practice. The only way to get "orders of magnitude" in the speed difference is if you're counting hundredths of a second.
5. Size should be based on things like fit, sight radius, and balance, not on capacity. The gun doesn't limit how much ammo you can carry.
6. You don't have to be scared to know that ND's happen, but I don't advocate a revolver or double-action trigger as a fix for negligence.
7. Pick a manual of arms and train with it.
8. Short-recoil operated semi-automatics have a lower recoil velocity than a revolver of similar weight and the same effective power factor. But steel revolvers are usually much heavier than polymer autos, reducing the recoil velocity. Also, reciprocating slides induce felt recoil and gun movement even with very low recoiling cartridges that is not felt with a revolver.
9. J frames and similar size guns never shine -- not unless they're nickel-plated.

 

[GEM]

4. With moon clips or speedloaders, you do not have to be Jerry to be as fast as most people are with magazines. Revolver reloads can be very, very fast with only a modest amount of practice. The only way to get "orders of magnitude" in the speed difference is if you're counting hundredths of a second.

Perhaps, I should be clearer. I've shot with mags and speedloaders in matches. With my 6 shot revolver, I carry three speedloaders on my belt for. For a typical stage, with 8 to 9 targets - two shots each - I have one reload with my Glock. With my revolver, I had minimum of two reloads.

If I am in a horrible intensive fight - with my Glock 17 - I have 18 on board and another 17 in one extra mag, easily carried on the other side of my belt. That's 35 rounds which I can access with one reload. With a 6 shot 686, I have six on board. Two reloads to get to 18 while the Glock is still in the fight. Tom Givens calls this time in the fight. To equal the rest of the Glock load, accomplished with one reload - this is an SAT question, when your train gets to Cleveland, how many reloads did you have to do to equal the 17?

Also, carrying one 17 mag is much easier than a belt festooned with three speed loads for concealment. Not being Jerry - I'd bet that the average shooter is much faster in reloads of a mag (drop with one hand), insert with other as compared to the revolver reload. Most folks are not carrying a gun designed for moon clips, nor would practice to come up to speed.

I really don't see why a SW 686 weighing 39 oz and 6 or 7 shots compares to a Glock 17 at 31 oz loaded with 18 available rounds if you move beyond the single mugger paradigm.

As far as small gun recoil and carry. The reasonable comparison is something like a G42 vs a lighter weight J like a 642. I recently ran about 120 rounds of various 'power' in a 642 and a G42. the +p 38s have a much more significant kick than the +p 380s. Not for the novice. You could carry a steel J but most folks find they are uncomfortable in a pocket. In fact, mild wadcutters are recommended by some pros as being the most useful J defense round. Low recoil and good wound characteristics.

So, if wheel gun carry is nostalgia, I'm not in for nostalgia for lethal force, life and death usages. I have a friend who is a national revolver champion who used to come in second to Jerry and won plenty of matches on his own. His EDC is a semi (which he shoots well). In fact, sometimes he and I were the only gun folks shooting a revolver. Thus, I brag that I came in second to a national champion (but I also came in last!).

If semis are banned by President Beto, then I would carry a revolver and feel reasonably ok for most circumstance but not optimal. It comes down to the reason - nostalgia vs. utility. To come up to equal utility with a revolver beyond the single mugger begone scenario, the revolver folks have to go to modified guns, extremely intense training and a less comfortable concealement for equal rounds.

 

[Trunk Monkey]

I routinely carry single stacks and jframes concealed owb in pancake holster, and I do not find it any harder to conceal jframe on the belt vs a single stack 9mm sized guns. In my experience, jframes conceal better at 3ish on the belt do to the fact that it doesn't have the typical handgun profile, and the butt are of the grip isn't typically as wide and squared. The thickness of the cylinder has never been an issue for me or made the gun less concealable despite conventional wisdom. YMMV...

Another plus for Jframes are they're usually lighter than single stacks as well...

J frames are a 1 or 2 bad guy gun, in a 3 or 4 bad guy world

 

[GEM]

That is a crucial statement - it parses like this:

1. You realize this and accept the risk that an encounter will be more intense than 1 or 2 guys and you may not be effective with limited rounds
2. You are in denial this could happen as you believer a measure of central tendency means it always happens, you ignore the extremes and you over estimate your shooting ability and/or stopping power (this has been done in this thread).

The serious J or revolver folks I know - will state that they are in category #1. They are not in denial.

 

[Styx]

J frames are a 1 or 2 bad guy gun, in a 3 or 4 bad guy world

Many of us who do not EDC dozens in a of rounds everyday realize that the reality that they aren't going to be taking on gangs, a pack of terrist, armed to the teeth bank robbers, are going to be involved in a drug war, or the like. The revolver and single stack crowd are prioritizing comfort, concealablity, and situations they are likely to be in over going to the far extreme. I carry a revolver with speed strips or a 6+1 semi with one reload. I feel that is more than enough to help get me out of trouble. Whether a revolver will be enough for more than two bad guys or not is just opinion and feelings based, and is not a fact based rule.

There are a few members on the DefensiveCarry forum who carry a G19 or larger, two reloads, a NY reload, and then an AR or the like with hundreds of rounds in their car... If memory serves me correctly, I actually recall one member who carried two full sized handguns and a NY reload. In that particular thread, they were using the exact same argument against people like you and GEM who I assume do not go to their extreme...

 

[fireside44]

1. The assumption of the low round fight based on assuming the average happens and not worrying about being an extreme case. Those do happen.
2. Reliability - the odds that with quality handguns of each type, there may be a smaller advantage to the revolver (but when they go bad, their jams are worse).
3. One handed manipulation - semis are easier.
4. Reloads - sorry folks who think they are Jerry - semis are orders of magnitude faster.
5. Size - belt gun - why carry the same size with lesser capacity?
6. You are scared of the semi lighter trigger. Well, train, get a DAO or TDA semi. Avoid the strikers or 1911s as you don't think you can come up to speed and handle them safely
7. Oops, no safeties on revolvers (exotic exceptions and modifications noted - never seen one). Of course, you get the strikers with no little switch type of safety on the side of the gun. Yes, Glock has safeties but not that, unless you get a special model.
8. With comparable power rounds, less felt recoil in semis.
9. Pocket guns - that's when the J size revolvers shine. However, they are not for novices and ammo that works for you must be tested. You need to train with them (unless you think you are the person, that will just have the 3 yard fight that you can point shoot successfully - which does happen).

So is the crux of the matter, fear of the semi - some kind of curmudgeon wanting to be a contrarian old fart? I love shooting a revolver but practically, belt gun is a semi.

I'm contrary and only own and carry revolvers (when it's not possible or inconvenient for rifle). Partly because handguns are about as interesting to me firearms-wise as a wheelbarrow save for the metallic reloading part.

1, 4, and 5: If I'm carrying a pistol and worried about capacity and reloads I make sure to have rifle in that situation. Miniscule possibility of a gunfight at the ok corral. But someone has to get bit by sharks, struck by lightning, and win the lottery so if you're lucky I guess you should have auto

2. I don't think autos really suffer any disadvantages for reliability anymore. If there is a disadvantage, it's absolutely miniscule and not worthy of consideration

3. I disagree. A revolver is simplicity and ease of operation with one hand until a reload is needed. If reload is needed, see #1

6. N/A

7. The best safety is between your ears otherwise nerf gear is still available at participating stores

8. Only of concern for small people, wimps, and those with medical problems

9. I gave my wife a 3" J frame and she proceeded to go to town after many years of little or no shooting so what gives? If I gave her a semi it becomes to complex and goes unused. I can raise a child army using AK's and K frames, good luck explaining the manual of arms to polymer hi-cap and an AR-15 and have them work it safely if they don't have higher than average interest level off the bat. Many gun owners but far fewer enthusiasts.

 

[Trunk Monkey]

Many of us who do not EDC dozens in a of rounds everyday realize that the reality that they aren't going to be taking on gangs, a pack of terrist, armed to the teeth bank robbers, are going to be involved in a drug war, or the like. The revolver and single stack crowd are prioritizing comfort, concealablity, and situations they are likely to be in over going to the far extreme. I carry a revolver with speed strips or a 6+1 semi with one reload. I feel that is more than enough to help get me out of trouble. Whether a revolver will be enough for more than two bad guys or not is just opinion and feelings based, and is not a fact based rule.

There are a few members on the DefensiveCarry forum who carry a G19 or larger, two reloads, a NY reload, and then an AR or the like with hundreds of rounds in their car... If memory serves me correctly, I actually recall one member who carried two full sized handguns and a NY reload. In that particular thread, they were using the exact same argument against people like you and GEM who I assume do not go to their extreme...

I used to carry an M&P Shield. One night I was out walking my dog when five of my neighbor's drugged up buddies surrounded me. Nothing happened and they had no ill intent. They were stoned out of their minds and wanted to say high to my dog but the speed with which they surrounded me convinced me never to walk out my front door with a gun that holds less than 10 rounds again.

I walked out of my house to go to work one night and was loading up my car (in fact I had just put my body armor in the back seat) when two crackheads walked around the corner of the building and decided to rob me.

I was in uniform and clearly armed. They tried anyway. I drew on them and was able to talk them out of it but they weren't intimidated in the slightest, they just decided it wasn't worth the trouble. They walked away.

I work around street rats all night long and I almost never see them alone