koja48
member
To reiterate . . . "Rule #4" . . . follow that and any investigation will be due to "discerned report."
Ricochets (Got a friendly lecture today)
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bogie
Member
People were talking about shooting into water or mud, and getting things going bouncy...
Dry ground works just as well for that. And rock just under the surface works wonders. I wouldn't want to be on the other side of a berm with someone playing spray and pray on the ground on the range side.
Dry ground works just as well for that. And rock just under the surface works wonders. I wouldn't want to be on the other side of a berm with someone playing spray and pray on the ground on the range side.
W.E.G.
Member
OK, I guess I took the OP as saying the deputy heard the BULLET striking in the vicinity of his location out on the road.
I've certainly heard the bzzzing-yowwwww sound of a deflected bullet. That sound exists mostly at the location of the original deflection, and the volume of the sound certainly diminishes rapidly as the bullet continues to travel. I'd still be real surprised if the deputy could hear THAT sound out on the highway. At best, the sound had to be extremely faint at a distance of 1300 yards from the original point of impact - indicating that the bullets were likely NOT being fired in direction so as to endanger the deputy.
Unless you have some very special acoustics, that sound just is not going to travel 1300 yards.
Maybe he heard it as he came very near the firing point.
At some point the deputy did have to get from the road (wherever that is) to the location where the firing was occurring - which was the DEPUTY'S choice - not the shooter's.
I've certainly heard the bzzzing-yowwwww sound of a deflected bullet. That sound exists mostly at the location of the original deflection, and the volume of the sound certainly diminishes rapidly as the bullet continues to travel. I'd still be real surprised if the deputy could hear THAT sound out on the highway. At best, the sound had to be extremely faint at a distance of 1300 yards from the original point of impact - indicating that the bullets were likely NOT being fired in direction so as to endanger the deputy.
Unless you have some very special acoustics, that sound just is not going to travel 1300 yards.
Maybe he heard it as he came very near the firing point.
At some point the deputy did have to get from the road (wherever that is) to the location where the firing was occurring - which was the DEPUTY'S choice - not the shooter's.
Stevie-Ray
Member
That's funny?
Next time you are walking an outdoor range, look at the ground near the target area. You may see "skip marks" near the targets where bullets went low, plowed a bit, and took off. I've seen them. No telling where those bullets landed.
Yeah, those folks were bad shots. Or maybe they were sighting in. In any event, those bullets will skip and fly.
Yeah, those folks were bad shots. Or maybe they were sighting in. In any event, those bullets will skip and fly.
Someone shooting at level ground on my land, sent a .30 calibre bullet 3 miles into a picture window of a house. Of course the energy at that distance is pretty small, but it still went through the window. You better know what is downrange for a good distance if you are going to be shooting without a backstop. When I hunt, I note where every farmhouse is because these rounds can go great distances.
igor
Member
The deputy was doing the absolutely right thing. Ricochet will happen even darn close to 90 degrees angles into a decent backstop.
I often work in organizing IPSC matches. The key thing in designing and building stages on a range is avoiding ricochet risks. It is totally amazing how difficult it can be.
Shooting at angle into the ground, in any kind of ground, will inevitably lead to ricochet. Make no mistake about it again. Have a good backstop and get your targets as close to it as possible. A bullet will change its direction even going thru the cardboard, let alone a target stand stick. You want to capture every single one in your backstop.
On military ranges where I live the calculated safety distances in the range direction are over one kilometer for pistol calibers and over four kilometers for .308. There can be nothing in that area, no roads, no dwellings. And they build the berms over 8 meters high already. Consider that.
I often work in organizing IPSC matches. The key thing in designing and building stages on a range is avoiding ricochet risks. It is totally amazing how difficult it can be.
Shooting at angle into the ground, in any kind of ground, will inevitably lead to ricochet. Make no mistake about it again. Have a good backstop and get your targets as close to it as possible. A bullet will change its direction even going thru the cardboard, let alone a target stand stick. You want to capture every single one in your backstop.
On military ranges where I live the calculated safety distances in the range direction are over one kilometer for pistol calibers and over four kilometers for .308. There can be nothing in that area, no roads, no dwellings. And they build the berms over 8 meters high already. Consider that.
El Tejon
Member
Let me see if I have this right: if I am shooting, even if it is not a machine gun, I should be aware of my target and what is behind it?
Does Rule #4 apply to my buddy's land? What if I am shooting on my own land do I need to worry about Rule #4?
What if I have a theory, does Rule #4 still apply? Does my theory trump Rule #4?
Do the Four Rules always apply? What if I say "magic, magic"; does saying "magic, magic" trump the Four Rules?
Does Rule #4 apply to my buddy's land? What if I am shooting on my own land do I need to worry about Rule #4?
What if I have a theory, does Rule #4 still apply? Does my theory trump Rule #4?
Do the Four Rules always apply? What if I say "magic, magic"; does saying "magic, magic" trump the Four Rules?
XD Fan
Member
El Tejon,
I think I get your point. Please clarify if I am missing it. What you are saying is that I always need to be aware of my target and what is behind it when I am shooting--even if I am shooting a spitwad through a straw (note exaggeration for effect here).
Thanks for the reminder, El Tejon.
I think I get your point. Please clarify if I am missing it. What you are saying is that I always need to be aware of my target and what is behind it when I am shooting--even if I am shooting a spitwad through a straw (note exaggeration for effect here).
Thanks for the reminder, El Tejon.
Mil-Spec45
Member
No, no, no. I think he means listen to Rule #4 even when Rule #4 trumps Rule #4 unless you can only count to 3; whereas rule #3 thus turns into Rule #3 AND #4, as such you should not neglect Rules # 1 through 2, as well.
And we ALL know what Rule #4 is! (Unless, of course, you say "magic, magic" first, nulling Rule #4)
And we ALL know what Rule #4 is! (Unless, of course, you say "magic, magic" first, nulling Rule #4)
Brian Dale
Member
Here's the simple answer: ricochets are weird, and strange things happen. We've got guns, so it's important to make sure that the rare events that happen won't hurt anybody.
.22LR or .30-'06, I've skipped rounds off of surfaces that had no business bouncing them up to fly onward. Nevertheless, fly onward they did. I've been hunting in the woods and had a round come past me, sounding like a tiny, tumbling chainsaw which should simply not have been there.
Still, there it was.
Go overboard on safety, all the time, and you'll stand a better chance of avoiding tragic one-in-a-million events.
.22LR or .30-'06, I've skipped rounds off of surfaces that had no business bouncing them up to fly onward. Nevertheless, fly onward they did. I've been hunting in the woods and had a round come past me, sounding like a tiny, tumbling chainsaw which should simply not have been there.
Still, there it was.
Go overboard on safety, all the time, and you'll stand a better chance of avoiding tragic one-in-a-million events.
sacp81170a
Member
Having fired on many knockdown target ranges in the military, I've lost count of the times I've seen rounds clearly impact the berm in front of a target and yet knock the target down. When examined, the targets will show head or shoulder high keyholes from a ricochet a few feet in front of them. We were always taught that it's better to miss low than miss high since there's a good chance a low miss will ricochet right into your enemy. Food for thought.
230RN
2A was "political" when it was first adopted.
Speaking of acoustics:
I got accused of careless shooting once when I was shooting downward at a mud bank in a sparsely-populated Light industrial/Agricultural area.
I was shooting (.22LR auto pistol) at near perfect right angle into the muck. I could see the nice little round holes/craters punched into the mud near my targets of opportunity, leaves that had settled on the goo.
Not one of them got away, as far as I could tell.
But a person came up from the opposite direction from my shooting and claimed he had heard several ricochets "going right by my head." They always seem to go "right by my head" for some reason.
I apologized and quit shooting and did a little investigating after he left.
I then popped one more, again into the muck, but without my ears on, and sure enough, I heard a pwang! from behind me.
This is a little hard to explain, but there was an industrial building about 150 yards behind me which was built out of those concrete T-sections set upright so that the flat side faced to the inside of the building, with the web of the Ts facing to the outside, and at a slight angle to where I was shooting (perfectly legally by the way.)
So there were about 20-30 vertical strips of concrete on the building about five feet apart which were successively echoing the sounds of my shots to make the "pwang" noise!
He wasn't hearing ricochets, he was hearing successive echoes from the vertical strips on the building.
Darndest thing.
I went back to shooting with no worries that my bullets were going anywhere but into the squooshily safe mud bank.
I got accused of careless shooting once when I was shooting downward at a mud bank in a sparsely-populated Light industrial/Agricultural area.
I was shooting (.22LR auto pistol) at near perfect right angle into the muck. I could see the nice little round holes/craters punched into the mud near my targets of opportunity, leaves that had settled on the goo.
Not one of them got away, as far as I could tell.
But a person came up from the opposite direction from my shooting and claimed he had heard several ricochets "going right by my head." They always seem to go "right by my head" for some reason.
I apologized and quit shooting and did a little investigating after he left.
I then popped one more, again into the muck, but without my ears on, and sure enough, I heard a pwang! from behind me.
This is a little hard to explain, but there was an industrial building about 150 yards behind me which was built out of those concrete T-sections set upright so that the flat side faced to the inside of the building, with the web of the Ts facing to the outside, and at a slight angle to where I was shooting (perfectly legally by the way.)
So there were about 20-30 vertical strips of concrete on the building about five feet apart which were successively echoing the sounds of my shots to make the "pwang" noise!
He wasn't hearing ricochets, he was hearing successive echoes from the vertical strips on the building.
Darndest thing.
I went back to shooting with no worries that my bullets were going anywhere but into the squooshily safe mud bank.
Well
I was at my local indoor range one day and was the only one out there shooting and had one come back on me. I was shooting my 9mm and I shot a round down range and was hit in my leg, I thought I had dropped something off the shooting table when I looked down and saw the round sitting in frount of me.......scared the **** out of me! No injury or anything didn't even draw blood or leave any mark but it still happened.
I was at my local indoor range one day and was the only one out there shooting and had one come back on me. I was shooting my 9mm and I shot a round down range and was hit in my leg, I thought I had dropped something off the shooting table when I looked down and saw the round sitting in frount of me.......scared the **** out of me! No injury or anything didn't even draw blood or leave any mark but it still happened.
warwagon
Member
rc109a
I was instructed the same way in the 80s, makes you re-think cover, and the prone, kneeling positions doesn't it?
I was instructed the same way in the 80s, makes you re-think cover, and the prone, kneeling positions doesn't it?
A-190
Member
Years ago I and a group of fellow cops were camping in the far reaches of SW Oklahoma..............now thats a different story but this is about richochets right.
WE were camped on a small bluff and two of the guys went to shoot in an arroyo some distance away...........Well we could hear the shooting and then.............we started hearing the whine of ricos coming over the camp........
we all scattered and ducked...........all except Dad...................He was in his late 70's. Just sitting in the shade reading his paper as these rico rounds were flying about.............
Now get this a bunch of seasoned cops, several with Nam experience.. one just back from the Gulf war 1 all of us ducked down and cowering..........and there was this old man just blithfully sitting..................His comments............He had heard worse on Omaha (1st wave) so........................better send some one down to the tow shootist and tell them to adjust their fire...........
Just an old camping story........no parables or such
WE were camped on a small bluff and two of the guys went to shoot in an arroyo some distance away...........Well we could hear the shooting and then.............we started hearing the whine of ricos coming over the camp........
we all scattered and ducked...........all except Dad...................He was in his late 70's. Just sitting in the shade reading his paper as these rico rounds were flying about.............
Now get this a bunch of seasoned cops, several with Nam experience.. one just back from the Gulf war 1 all of us ducked down and cowering..........and there was this old man just blithfully sitting..................His comments............He had heard worse on Omaha (1st wave) so........................better send some one down to the tow shootist and tell them to adjust their fire...........
Just an old camping story........no parables or such
Double Naught Spy
Sus Venator
That is called skipping and they do it with things like AR15s as well, as in the North Hollywood Bank Robbery.
El Tejon
Member
XD, *kicks rocks* yes, that what I'm saying.
I'll spare everyone the lecture on the need for proper firearms handling to benefit the overall status of the gun culture.
Anywho it's bad enough on THR that we see posted photos of shooters doing unsafe behavior and then brag about it (not wearing eye protection, shooting water, fingers on triggers, not caring about Rule #4, etc.). Glad no one was hurt but if we follow the Four Rules no one will be.
I'll spare everyone the lecture on the need for proper firearms handling to benefit the overall status of the gun culture.
Anywho it's bad enough on THR that we see posted photos of shooters doing unsafe behavior and then brag about it (not wearing eye protection, shooting water, fingers on triggers, not caring about Rule #4, etc.). Glad no one was hurt but if we follow the Four Rules no one will be.
chris in va
Member
I'll never forget. Went in to my local Gander Mountain to poke around in the gun section. Older gentleman ambles up to the counter, plinks down a spent, misshapen bullet on the glass counter and asks the guy, "any idea what this is?".
He didn't, so I had a look. Pretty darn huge, and it measured .50" across.
I said it was a 50BMG and his eyes got kinda big. He then said, "well, I was driving along in my pickup on Rte 7 and this thing hit my truck."
He didn't, so I had a look. Pretty darn huge, and it measured .50" across.
I said it was a 50BMG and his eyes got kinda big. He then said, "well, I was driving along in my pickup on Rte 7 and this thing hit my truck."
Rmart30
Member
Id agree with that
boatbod
Member
At last January's mdshooters gathering, a guy shooting his 50BMG at 100yd steel plate had a stripped copper jacket deposit itself in the bed of a pickup parked some distance BEHIND the firing line.
(warning, very long thread with gratuitous firearms porn)
http://www.mdshooters.com/showthread.php?p=60168
(warning, very long thread with gratuitous firearms porn)
http://www.mdshooters.com/showthread.php?p=60168
3rdRRU_PhuBai
Member
1. Adequate backstop.
2. Every bullet has your name on it.
2. Every bullet has your name on it.
OK, let's try posting this video again. Got some good richochets in it, it's amazing when you can see 'em. http://youtube.com/my_videos_edit2?.../my_videos2?pi=0&ps=20&sf=added&sa=0&sq=&dm=1
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