This thread came to mind yesterday while I was at a gunshow. I was checking out the toys and came across an AR pistol and the box for it was labeled in big red letters: ATTENTION DEALER. THIS FIREARM IS A PISTOL. I may be paraphrasing, but you get the gist.
Rifle masquerading as a pistol
- Thread starter FlSwampRat
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You don't have to contact the BATF. If it's configured as an SBR, it's an SBR. If it's configured as an SBR, does the seller have the right paperwork? If not, the seller is in violation of the law. However, the seller can separate the upper from the lower and sell the lower without violating the law, paperwork or no paperwork.
If an SBR lower is sold separately without being transferred as an SBR, then it's removed from the registry. The "Once A Machinegun, Always A Machinegun" ruling does not apply to SBRs.
(NOTE: The BATF is to be notified when an SBR lower is removed from the registry.)
dogtown tom
Member
ATF requests that you notify them when an SBR or SBS is no longer in SBS/SBR configuration, but notification is NOT required by any law or ATF regulation.
And.........NOTHING is ever removed from the NFA Registry. ATF just makes a notation to the Registry that the firearm is no longer in NFA configuration.
BSA1
member
If Person 2 were to assemble as a pistol or other firearm, ATF wAnd for the sake of argument, suppose you are building an AR from the ground up. The LAST part you have on your kitchen table is a shoulder stock. What firearm do you have on the table in front of you? That there...is a pistol. Now you put on the shoulder stock.
How close does a shoulder stock have to be to a pistol for it to be considered as a SBR? 6”, 1’, 20’, in another part of my house?
Suppose the only AR I own has a less than 16” barrel without a stock on it and I happen to have a unused shoulder stock. Since I don’t have another AR or AR lower receiver to legally put the stock on am I in “constructive” possession of a SBR? It will only take a few seconds to install the stock.
“Constructive possession” is used regularly in drug cases.
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Thanks. I wasn't certain if notifying the BATF was mandatory or not and erred on the side of caution.
I think erroring on the side of caution is the theme of this thread.
dogtown tom
Member
Did you read ATF Ruling 2011-4? https://www.atf.gov/firearms/docs/r...red-rifles-rifles-configured-pistols/download
In part:
Held, a firearm, as defined by the National Firearms Act (NFA), 26 U.S.C. 5845(a)(3), is made when unassembled parts are placed in close proximity in such a way that they: (a) Serve no useful purpose other than to make a rifle having a barrel or barrels of less than 16 inches in length (e.g., a receiver, an attachable shoulder stock, and barrel of less than 16 inches in length); or (b) Convert a complete weapon into such an NFA firearm, including – (1) A pistol and attachable shoulder stock; and - 4 - (2) A rifle with a barrel of 16 inches or more in length, and an attachable barrel of less than 16 inches in length. Such weapons must be registered and are subject to all requirements of the NFA.
"How close" isn't defined by ATF and "close proximity" isn't measured in feet or inches. Typically, "possession" means under your care, custody or control.
I think it would be a dangerous assumption to believe you aren't in possession of something located on your own property or in your household.
But, what you quoted was in reference to building an AR with a 16" bbl......it's likely a pistol before you ever attach the shoulder stock last. And that shoulder stock won't make an AR pistol with 16" bbl an SBR.
Of course, that's covered in Ruling 2011-4.
BSA1
member
Yep I have read the ruling and a whole lot of other stuff about SBR’s pistols, AR’s (but I do skim over Zombie rulings). I am retired State Bureaucrat so I know from first hand experiences how willing government agencies are willing to ignore laws and follow their own whims and ways. Vague terms like “close proximity”, “constructive possession” are words that most of us don’t want to have a Judge rule on.
The BATF is a rogue agency with a well documented history on trampling on the rights of gun owners. A anti-gun President backed up by a anti-gun Congress....
Well no more Mr. Nice Guy.
The BATF is a rogue agency with a well documented history on trampling on the rights of gun owners. A anti-gun President backed up by a anti-gun Congress....
Well no more Mr. Nice Guy.
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Are Charger receivers marked differently than 10/22 receivers?
This is a fascinating/frustrating area of the law. Just a few thoughts for the OP: If you take in an AR pistol on pawn or purchase, require the seller to sign a statement that to her knowledge, the gun was initially produced as a pistol or the lower receiver was first built as a pistol. No statement, no deal. Yes, I understand that the same individual assured you she would pick it up, but life happens. At least you have done what you reasonably could to avoid contraband in stock.
If it wears a stock and a short barrel with or without the necessary SBR engraving, there's the door. If the rollmark says pistol but it is set up as a rifle, no harm no foul but don't allow mounting a short barrel upper in store by anyone. No reason to incur risk--no control over buyer once out the door.
If it wears a stock and a short barrel with or without the necessary SBR engraving, there's the door. If the rollmark says pistol but it is set up as a rifle, no harm no foul but don't allow mounting a short barrel upper in store by anyone. No reason to incur risk--no control over buyer once out the door.
dogtown tom
Member
And what does such a signed statement provide? A B S O L U T E L Y N O T H I N G.
Any dealer so terrified of having "contraband in stock" should exit the gun business immediately. Nonsense such as "signed statements" have ZERO impact on whether the firearm is contraband. About as useless as making a buyer give a signed statement attesting that the firearm was not stolen, was not used in a crime or shot exactly "X" number of rounds.Simply conduct your firearms business as required by law.
Well no kidding? An AR that "wears a stock and a short barrel" IS AN SBR......NOT A PISTOL!!!
But wait..........if the prospective seller removes the upper assembly from his supposed SBR.....IT AIN'T AN SBR ANYMORE!!!!! Fully legal for any licensed dealer to acquire and dispose of as a firearm receiver.
Further, "the necessary SBR engraving"?........I have four SBR's, none of which has "the necessary SBR engraving". If you wonder why that is you need to do some reading before giving advice on such matters.
Sorry, Tom, did not intend to disparage you or your knowledge of the regs. I do believe that documenting an attempt to do things properly might be advantageous someday. I also note that we were talking about about an SBR, not a lower receiver, in the second paragraph. I'm glad we can agree that the OP should steer clear of them. I don't care what you do with yours.
dogtown tom
Member
I didn't say my SBR's didn't have identification. They have all the requirements of 479.102..........exactly the same requirements as my other Title I (non NFA) firearms.
rust collector wrote: "If it wears a stock and a short barrel with or without the necessary SBR engraving, there's the door.". Being that here is no required SBR specific engraving under Federal law, no "necessary SBR engraving appears" on my SBR's.
If you read 479.102 you'll find WHO IS REQUIRED to engrave or mark certain information on firearms. That's why I asked rust collector to do some research.
Sistema1927
Member
More smoke and heat here than light.
dogtown tom
Member
entropy
Member
??? Do you not use a barrel nut wrench on your builds?
Unless the SBR is a full auto.
dogtown tom
Member
If it's "full auto" it's a machine gun, not an SBR. MG's aren't defined by barrel or overall length, SBR's are.
OP
OP
FlSwampRat
Member
Nope, just a pipe wrench.
Seriously, I don't own an AR, never had interest in the platform once Uncle Sugar took back the M-16 he'd loaned me for a couple of years.
I was referring to the ease of popping a pistol upper, complete with barrel, on a rifle lower. Apologies for being unclear.
FISwampRat, there is really only one safe answer for you.
A used AR "pistol" is only as valuable as its parts, and the receiver is worthless.
If its a cheap'ish AR "pistol" simply strip it down to:
Complete upper barrel assembly - sell it whole w/ bolt carrier group and charging handle.
Strip the lower receiver - sell the lower parts as a complete kit with or without the tube/brace.
Cut up and trash the questionable receiver, photograph the two parts w/ serial number for posterity.
Done.
If you don't already, stock a few inexpensive stripped Mil-spec lowers to sell along with the parts bag and complete upper.
If its a nice high-end AR pistol with matching upper and lower, try calling that manufacturer before buying it, you might get lucky and find out how that receiver was sold.
A used AR "pistol" is only as valuable as its parts, and the receiver is worthless.
If its a cheap'ish AR "pistol" simply strip it down to:
Complete upper barrel assembly - sell it whole w/ bolt carrier group and charging handle.
Strip the lower receiver - sell the lower parts as a complete kit with or without the tube/brace.
Cut up and trash the questionable receiver, photograph the two parts w/ serial number for posterity.
Done.
If you don't already, stock a few inexpensive stripped Mil-spec lowers to sell along with the parts bag and complete upper.
If its a nice high-end AR pistol with matching upper and lower, try calling that manufacturer before buying it, you might get lucky and find out how that receiver was sold.
Texasgrillchef
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After reading all this, i wonder how it is any different then buying a legal firearm that was used in a Felony crime. While the firearm and sale and transfer may all be legal. Law enforcement could still come in and seize the weapon for investigative purposes. While you may eventually get the weapon returned to you, it could still take years.
If i were you, i would simply not deal in those types of firearms as a dealer.
If i were you, i would simply not deal in those types of firearms as a dealer.
Following your line of thought no dealer would ever deal in used firearms.
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